It should be a "hatchet job" --- Us online poker players were robbed of MILLIONS of dollars, how do you present that in a 'good' way? lol

I have no sympathy whatsoever for how online poker will be portrayed.

Rest assured this will be a hatchet job and I hope 60 Minutes makes AP/UB the poster child for all the worst online poker could be. This industry needs a clean up and legitimacy for it to move forward. It's currently filled with questionable characters among some legitimate operators. Those questionable characters, specifically UB/AP, will do more damage and delay a reversal of IUEGA than the legit operators like pokerstars and Full Tilt can spread good will. As it sits UB/AP has given the pro IUEGA crowd plenty of ammuntion against legalization of online poker. We dont need more of their help. UB/AP is a cancer and they will kill the whole industry in the US if left to chart thier own course.

UB/AP has to die in order for the rest of the industry to understand there are consquences for bad management, stewardship, and ownership. These guys were given a speeding ticket for robbing a bank. The "once they get their ship righted" crowd is set on making the statement to UB/AP, "Guys you can rip us off 7 ways to Tuesday but please just let us play! We need your WSOP entries! We need to be staked! Let us please have your tainted money, money stolen by your owners and employees so we are not beholden to your competition." All it says is we as individuals have a price and frankly those of you who take advantage of the situation... we'll on one hand congrats on being able to leverage your reputations...but you are all acting selfishly and without regard or resposibility for greater issues. Number one being the integrity of the online poker industry.

I hope 60 Minutes hits the industry HARD. 1) Maybe then it will somehow make the big sites start cleaning thier neighborhood against the UB/AP's in the arena. They know whats going on, take action against the bad apples people! and 2) Hopefully it will kill UB/AP off once and for all.

While I agree with everybody that AP/UB should be put out of business, you all don't seem to mind it happening at the expense of the industry as a whole, including the legitimate sites. ONE SITE (because AP and UB are essentially the same, same owners, same people hacked em both) has proven itself sleazy, and we're dealing with it as best we can.

I dont understand how so many people have decided, based on that, the whole industry is tainted and crooked by association. You think stars and FTP dont know there are consequences? Why do you think they have such good security and customer service? When I email Stars support, I have a response within minutes. When I report suspected collusion, they always look into it seriously. If anything, they are overprotective (judging by the constant posts about people getting their accounts closed for shady associations). These sites are what poker sites should be.
Just because online players as a whole have not banded together as we hoped to punish AP/UB, doesnt mean the whole industry should go down in flames because of some sensationalist reporting. And sad as it is to say, AP/UB will never die. Their expenses are just too low; even if they only have a few thousand players, theyll make money, just less. And their casinos add to their bottom line. Dont expect them to go away until theres regulation.

MrDevil, please explain "maybe then it will somehow make the big sites start cleaning their own house against he UB/APs in the arena"...what exactly have Stars and FTP and Bodog done wrong? And how do you expect them to act against AP/UB? JUST DONT PLAY ON THE ONE SITE THAT HAS BEEN CROOKED, it's that simple. Don't take it out on the good sites or try to screw the industry as a whole. I can't believe the negativity on this site, AN ONLINE POKER FORUM, where half the people responding are somehow convinced (with no evidence in support) that EVERY site is crooked, and the industry needs to be burned to the ground. Propose ways to hurt AP/UB, by all means, but why does every other site need to get burned? In what way have they failed?

And to PuertoKid - thanks trying to twist my words, for lack of any real argument on your part. I spent several paragraphs saying that I dont play AP/UB, that I want legitimate games on legitimate sites, and you cut and pasted the few pieces where I talk about the fish. well, the fish are part of the poker economy. Remember online poker before the boom? Neither do I; it barely existed.

If you think that online poker as we know it will exist, where you can hop into a HORSE SNG at 4am or where your $30 SNG fills up in two minutes, if all the fish leave - you're wrong. What I want is simple - honest games and lots of players. Aside from one shady site, the honest games part seems to be doing ok - I have only played in a few dishonest games out of several thousand on Stars and FTP, and each time I was compensated when the colluders were caught. And there are 100k players most hours of the day.

Seriously, it sounds like what most people are pissed about is that players havent rejected AP/UB. Yes, its disheartening. I wish there had been more players that left them. But again - why is that a reason for online poker as a whole to go down in flames? Why should Stars, or FTP, or the hundreds of thousands of players who play there, suffer because of this? Many of them (us) never play on AP/UB, so why should we pay for their mistakes? Im glad the scandal got so much coverage in the poker world, and Im glad that so many people vowed to never play there again. NOW LET IT GO. Dont play on those sites and go play somewhere good.

If you go to a second-rate fast food burger joint, and find a finger in your fries, do you demand that the government shut down every McDonalds and Burger King and ban hamburgers forever? And condemn anyone who eats burgers, even from other places? Or do you just never eat there again, and stick to more reputable providers? Im sickened by what happened at AP and UB, and I never even got cheated there. But I dont think it is reason enough for the whole industry, including the honest sites, to get destroyed. The innocent majority should not pay for the sins of a few greedy asshats.

It's a huge gamble to say "this exposure is good cuz it might bring regulation" - it might, or it might get the whole turned off forever. We have no reason to believe the former is more likely than the latter; in society at large, we have more enemies than proponents. Right now, all you have to do to protect yourself is stick to the top two or three sites, and you'll almost certainly be safe and treated well - virtually no risk. you get fair games, lots of players, all hours, all game types, good customer service, good security, etc. As opposed to taking a coinflip that things will increase some miniscule amount, or be gone forever. Think about it.

 

Originally Posted by epicatc

MrDevil, please explain "maybe then it will somehow make the big sites start cleaning their own house against he UB/APs in the arena"...what exactly have stars and FTP and Bodog done wrong? And how do you expect them to act against AP/UB?

I revised that to say ".......start cleaning their neighborhood against...." Poor word choice. Here is what they could do, for example,

(I'm not actually suggesting this but brainstorming in a proactive way against UB/AP)

Industry Association - The top sites could unify in a trade organization to the exclusion of UB/AP. Once done then they could speak as an industry against UB/AP by name.

Transparency - The only way for the community to "police" the sites is allow is limited access to data so the Nats of the world can research anomolies.

3rd party Oversite - kind of a hybrid of the 2 ideas above where we as players could go to have someone represent us when things go sideways. Someone the sites trust to view the data but not like internal security or the KGC e.g.

As far as your last 2 paragraphs go I dismiss them as not being relevant. Go back to my robbing a bank example. What do "we the people" do when the managers of the bank misappropiate bank funds. They shut down the damn bank. (See 80's savings and loan scandal and keep a future eye on WAMU).

Gambling is a problem for some just like alcohol and drugs. When it gets too pervasive in any society it becomes a problem. Poker has a gambling element and will never be baseball nor football for that reason. Hell last year the "side action" and the "Nuts" segments on ESPN last year show what kind of sick gamblers constitute the more prominent personalities in Poker. This does Poker such a horrible disservice. I sympathize with the majority and reinforces my point. If this industry is to grow we need prominent personalities who are not gambling sicko's and need sites that are not ripping people off.

Online gaming isnt going away. Part of the reason for IUEGA was to slow down overseas competitors in the US market so Las Vegas Casinos could catch up. They missed the boat on this and they had to start from zero when the boom came. Now that the US online gaming market is smaller and the Vegas casions have had time to catch up, IUEGA will go away in a way that will help Las Vegas. (I happen to know at least one of the major casino network is in Beta on an online gaming site). I expect to see in the plannable future the overseas sites in catchup mode in a post IUEGA world.

Does anybody know when this will air ?

 

Originally Posted by epicatc

And to PuertoKid - thanks trying to twist my words

No twisting involved--just pulled out the sentences that hi-lighted your real motivation.

I havent read all the responses, but gov't regulation of online poker will not be a good thing for the professionals. Govt regulation will only cause huge barriers of entry for the casual player to be able to play and will probably cause alot of people to leave, let alone the people that watch this show who will now never play online because they think they are being robbed. This isnt good for poker at all, let alone online poker.

 

Originally Posted by MarkFSU1

I havent read all the responses, but gov't regulation of online poker will not be a good thing for the professionals. Govt regulation will only cause huge barriers of entry for the casual player to be able to play and will probably cause alot of people to leave, let alone the people that watch this show who will now never play online because they think they are being robbed. This isnt good for poker at all, let alone online poker.

Yeah, yeah, I see how hard it is to play poker in the heavily regulated states of CA and NEV. I have such a hard time finding a game of poker...NOT.

Dude, you have to be kidding.

I suppose you submit that CA and NV poker is unregulated? Then well there is nothing that anyone can say. It's heavily regulated. In the end it will all be the same. Your post is both hysterical and humorous as it is crazy and unreasonable.

O.K. so you submit the pros would suffer. Pros are doing fine in in NV and CA and its heavily regulated. I am telling you the point is off base.

Apparently all the states that have live poker rooms have no regulation and there are no pros there either. I mean if we are going to be total retards lets be retards.

NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT LIVE POKER...we are talking about ONLINE poker. WTF, we are talking about the US govt trying to impose laws on the internet and foreign based companies. You have no clue what you are talking about. Nobody gives a shit about the 1/2 game you play at the dog track and those "pros" u seem to believe are there. There is sooooo much more here than you seem to understand. These are NOT US COMPANIES and half the players ARE NOT US PLAYERS. I am talking about US Regulation of ONLINE POKER. I guess when people say poker professional you only assume live players are pros??? The US govt telling foreign based countries that foreign residents must abide by US law is completely absurd. Can you imagine China telling the US that Americans must abide by Chinese law regarding American companies?? You have completely misread and misunderstood everything I have said...

 

Originally Posted by epicatc

Perhaps you could clear that up for me Adam - I dont think it was specified in any of the materials released about the UB fiasco - was that perpetrated the same way as at AP (ie by means of a backdoor left by programmers and used by employees)?

What happened on AP was done by AJ Green. A lot of people have speculated that Scott Tom was involved as well (hasn't been proven or admitted, but it seems likely to me as well). Scott and AJ are best buddies....Scott was one of the original owners of AP, and AJ has bounced around throughout the industry in high level jobs. Neither of these guys could have possibly had anything to do with what happened on UB, which was going on well before AP got involved with UB.

So really, the chance of the incidents even being related (other than that two similar thing happened on websites that are now owned by the same company) is pretty minimal.

At first glance it seems likely that they would be related, and since the vast majority of everyone is making assumptions based on that (and other false information), more and more has spread "verifying" this sort of idea. It actually looks a lot more like what happened at UB actually was done by mid-level employees, whereas what happened with AP was (admittedly) done by someone very high up at the time.