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Auto-push or Auto-fold?

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  1. capacehigh capacehigh is offline

    Beachwood, OH
    United States

    Posts: 53
    Joined: Dec 06

    Jan 18th, 2008 (1/18/2008 7:44am)

    On the fence about the push. Based on maybe some PXF videos, seems like this is an Auto-Push (i.e. A-rag, late position, <5 BB) - so text-book-wise seems like an auto-push. But, my gut told me otherwise since the BB was the big stack at the table and maybe even the tourney chip-leader - so I felt like it was an auto-fold.

    What is your advice?

    *********** # 173 **************
    pokerstars Game #14637386962: Tournament #73676355, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level XVII (2500/5000) - 2008/01/18 - 01:02:36 (ET)
    Table '73676355 94' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
    Seat 1: pokerdaveee (29500 in chips)
    Seat 2: CapAceHigh (24046 in chips)
    Seat 3: TAKE IT 69 (25706 in chips)
    Seat 4: ladieluck123 (85366 in chips)
    Seat 5: gunlinger71 (182647 in chips)
    Seat 6: turkish ace (113202 in chips)
    Seat 7: igotabeergut (67676 in chips)
    Seat 8: sdjen (65700 in chips)
    Seat 9: DARA1 (18192 in chips)
    pokerdaveee: posts the ante 500
    CapAceHigh: posts the ante 500
    TAKE IT 69: posts the ante 500
    ladieluck123: posts the ante 500
    gunlinger71: posts the ante 500
    turkish ace: posts the ante 500
    igotabeergut: posts the ante 500
    sdjen: posts the ante 500
    DARA1: posts the ante 500
    ladieluck123: posts small blind 2500
    gunlinger71: posts big blind 5000
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to CapAceHigh [Ah 4d]
    turkish ace: folds
    igotabeergut: folds
    sdjen: folds
    DARA1: folds
    pokerdaveee: folds
    CapAceHigh: raises 18546 to 23546 and is all-in
    TAKE IT 69: folds
    ladieluck123: folds
    gunlinger71: calls 18546
    *** FLOP *** [Js 6c Qh]
    *** TURN *** [Js 6c Qh] [Kc]
    *** RIVER *** [Js 6c Qh Kc] [Ks]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    gunlinger71: shows [2c 2s] (two pair, Kings and Deuces)
    CapAceHigh: shows [Ah 4d] (a pair of Kings)
    gunlinger71 collected 54092 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 54092 | Rake 0
    Board [Js 6c Qh Kc Ks]
    Seat 1: pokerdaveee folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 2: CapAceHigh showed [Ah 4d] and lost with a pair of Kings
    Seat 3: TAKE IT 69 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 4: ladieluck123 (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 5: gunlinger71 (big blind) showed [2c 2s] and won (54092) with two pair, Kings and Deuces
    Seat 6: turkish ace folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 7: igotabeergut folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 8: sdjen folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 9: DARA1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
  2. brent212 brent212 is offline

    Casselberry, FL
    United States

    Posts: 410
    Joined: Aug 06

    Jan 18th, 2008 (1/18/2008 7:48am) in reply to capacehigh

    auto push every time

    edit: honestly i don't like his call at all
  3. Camronius Camronius is offline

    Beerse
    Belgium

    Posts: 4,804
    Joined: Jul 07

    Jan 18th, 2008 (1/18/2008 8:16am) in reply to brent212

    2:1 on his money, with a short stack shoving his blinds. The call is so mf standard.

    Standard shove & Call.
  4. FlopNutsOnYou FlopNutsOnYou is offline

    Adelaide
    Australia

    Posts: 334
    Joined: Apr 07

    Jan 18th, 2008 (1/18/2008 8:26am) in reply to capacehigh

    Standard all around
  5. lordxixor101 lordxixor101 is offline

    Westland, MI
    United States

    Posts: 6,364
    Joined: Mar 06

    Jan 18th, 2008 (1/18/2008 9:40am) in reply to capacehigh

    Wow, you are bordering pushing any 2. The only thing stopping you from this being an ATC push is that the big blind will call most of the time.

    So, if he calls ATC, you are ahead of his range. He doesn't have to have anything. Sure, it's probably a borderline flip, but you still need to take it here. When is a better spot going to come up?

    His call is standard. He knows you have a wide pushing range, and his 22 plays ahead of that range. Not only that, but he's getting 2/1 on his money, so he only has to fear you having a pair, and even if you do, it isn't that -EV. So, his call was fine.

    So, your flip didn't work out there. Folding is worse, you won't have any fold equity on anyone soon, and soon, a win is just going to get you back to your current spot. You need to play (and win) these if you are going to have a chance.
  6. JKamikazeKid JKamikazeKid is offline

    Dayton, OH
    United States

    Posts: 1,178
    Joined: Sep 07

    Jan 18th, 2008 (1/18/2008 9:46am) in reply to brent212

    Hand's pretty standard.

    The call (under normal conditions) is a little loose, but look at the caller's chipstack. He's playing bigstack poker. His range of calling hands is huge. A-4 shove is standard given the blinds and your stack.
  7. MonkeyCowboy MonkeyCowboy is offline

    United States

    Posts: 6,869
    Joined: Apr 05

    Jan 18th, 2008 (1/18/2008 9:54am) in reply to capacehigh

    Cap - I hate to sound like a broken record but once again someone with a VERY LOW M is questioning their play when they get knocked out.

    This is not the hand to be analyzing. You have 0 yes 0 fold equity and the BB is calling you with 2 tops baseball cards and you should know this.

    The hands you should be looking at are the ones where you had some fold equity.

    Even considering folding here shows how you got into this spot to begin with.

    Your playing waek tight and you will flounder ITM wondering what you are doing wrong.

    Do not let your stack get to the point where is is now, this is where the bad beats happen and then you will be very up set when your AA gets beat by J2o.
  8. capacehigh capacehigh is offline

    Beachwood, OH
    United States

    Posts: 53
    Joined: Dec 06

    Jan 18th, 2008 (1/18/2008 10:02am) in reply to capacehigh

    Thank you for all the posts.

    So the consensus seems to be that it's a standard Auto-push.

    Obviously from my actions I agree with you all. However, I feel like this would be a EV+ if the stacks were closer to my stacks that I push into. That's my only concern in this situation.

    But, on the flip-side of it, to answer "when will a better spot come up?". Well, I'm one off the button, and the ante is only 500. I'm not going to hit the BB for 4-5 hands, so what's the trade-off: Push now in a "standard push & call" situation with a marginal hand - risking my tourney life, or be a tad patient for 4-5 hands, seeing if I come up with a better push spot or a monster?? Who knows, I'm so short stacked, I've got to eventually push, so what's the difference if I wait 4-5 more hands, losing 2K-2.5K in antes??
    Thread Starter
  9. EyeKnows EyeKnows is offline

    Posts: 6,643
    Joined: Sep 06

    Jan 18th, 2008 (1/18/2008 10:04am) in reply to capacehigh

    I think shoving ATC any hand of the previous twenty-five before this one would be a better plan than blinding down to this situation.

    But, since you are here, shove ATC please.

    Please disregard the first 'graph if you didn't blind off.
  10. capacehigh capacehigh is offline

    Beachwood, OH
    United States

    Posts: 53
    Joined: Dec 06

    Jan 18th, 2008 (1/18/2008 10:36am) in reply to MonkeyCowboy

    Thanks Monkey for the reply.

    "This is not the hand to be analyzing. You have 0 yes 0 fold equity and the BB is calling you with 2 tops baseball cards and you should know this."

    If no fold equity against the BB, why push here? Why not wait 4-5 Hands when another stack closer to mine is in SB/BB? And, maybe a better hand will come? Just trying to understand.

    "Do not let your stack get to the point where is is now, this is where the bad beats happen and then you will be very up set when your AA gets beat by J2o. "

    I'm, in general, not someone who plays just monster hands. However, in this situation, the last few tables I'd been at were fairly active and fairly loose - with several players having a very wide calling range. Maybe this is my "leak" or an area I need to improve in. Maybe it's the buy-in (don't usually play the 10+ rebuy). Not a huge impact to my BR, but just not my normal nesting place. So that might have had something to do with it. But I had been trying to steal on a few orbits b4. The resteal is not a tool in my bag of tricks I use often. Maybe I need to consider it more with loose callers?

    EDIT: Also, there were a few key hands that I probably misplayed. For instance, About 2 orbits before this hand, I had KK, I had ~25K, the blinds were 800/1600, and a stack ahead of me (~50K) made it 4.8K to go. I misplayed, and reraised slightly to 6.8K. thinking to build the pot a little more. He insta folded. To go all-in, I thought was a bit much. But maybe a better play would've been to flat call, with intention of moving all-in on the flop - hoping he bets the flop. In other words, I may have missed value on that had.
    Thread Starter
  11. SCTrojans SCTrojans is offline

    Los Angeles, CA
    United States

    Posts: 6,026
    Joined: Aug 06

    Jan 18th, 2008 (1/18/2008 10:37am) in reply to capacehigh

    If this hand played out any differently I would have to make fun of some people.
     13
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