Wow...i never find a fold here.

4bet call or shove

LOL

 

Originally Posted by TpocketT

4b/call

+1 although shove might be better cuz it makes it look more like AK and will induce him to call with JJ/1010 maybe 99. Just because he 3bets your utg raise you think he has AA/KK?

 

Originally Posted by L1verpoolFC

i dont see anything wrong w a 4bet call/ shove
obv a flats terrible
but is a fold pre out of the question here w 45bb vs a player who hasnt 3 bet since being at the table?

yes a fold is completely out of the question

 

Originally Posted by Pick6man

Curious what everyone thinks villains 5 bet range is here as a seemingly tight player?

Probably like AK, AA, KK but we are in good shape vs his 3 bet range and if he 5 bets we have 40% vs his range. Just because he has been tight doesn't mean he isn't all the sudden just spewing as well it's still a micro.

 

Originally Posted by rayfox111

Yeah, I think I agree with what your hinting at!
I posted earlier about shoving over his 5 bet, and when I looked at it later, cant see him 5 betting with less than QQ+, AK, and more likely KK+, AK.

Really hard to quantify how tight or how much of a nit he is here. But losing low buy in players generally do not show much creativity in these spots. I am not saying I hate 4bet/calling but looking at perhaps other lines that go against the grain of aggression. So we are 40% against that range and I will take PJ33s word on that cuz I have not stoved it. 4 bet to 3100 and folding to a 5 bet seems atrocious at these levels effectively turning QQ into a bluff and calling off against his 5 bet range to this type of player is perhaps -ev but you are really hoping AK or JJ show up here. I am not saying I am advocating any of this but just opening up some thought process for this spot instead of always just snap high fiving the monitor and getting it in. Have spoke with others as well and another optional line that was suggested is flatting(since you are not getting great but reasonable set mining odds) with the intent of floating any flop so you will more than likely see 4 cards and reevaluating. But many would say that is horrible and that you can easily be exploited. Just something to think about..........

Peace

lol @ all the people saying this is the easiest 4b/call ever, this spot much tougher than "wow i got queen and a queen aw in". like not saying i find a fold or anything all the time in this spot but i cant see how a puke in ur mouth a bit and fold is really that awful, i dont think its that great a spot to get in versus his 5 bet shoves, espec if he has been paying attention to how u play liverpool, not as if ur the laggiest opener in the world and u kno this.

lol yea i mean i guess so,as i said really cant see myself folding here but like there has been spots like this, albiet maybe pre ante and a lot deeper, where i just think f it, this is very rarely a bluff 3 bet and just fold but tell no1 about it. dont think its the worst ever to just consider folding and moving on, thats all, at what bb deep in this spot do we become uncomfortable getting it in

 

Originally Posted by rayfox111

You realy have to go with QQ, to fold your putting him on KK or AA.
If hes been tight as you say his range is prob 99+, AQo+, AQs+.
4 bet, hope he 5 bets so you can shove.

LoL......Your 3 bet range is way off IMO.

Someone mentioned that the OP is not very laggy himself so his UTG perceived range is going to be a fairly tight range. In this thread it is also mentioned that the 3 bettor has been a huge nit. If the 3 bettor knows and recognizes these game dynamics then he shouldn't have 99 to JJ in his 3 bet range as he's basically turning these hands into bluff by three betting them. He folds out all worse and the Original raiser will only continue with better and often 4bet or fold. It would make sense for the 3bettor to have more of a polarized 3bet range consisting of more air and AA, KK and AK.

In all honesty he's a huge nit and he's not getting out of line so his 3 bet range probably consists of pretty much QQ to AA and AK.

I'd fold in this spot and feel OK with it baring these dynamics exist -

1) My image is on the tighter side and I haven't shown that I've gotten out of line
2) My opponent is a huge nit and not very creative. (Meaning....he wouldn't use this spot and his image to 3bet light)

Finally...if you do feel he is three betting a merged range in this spot, which i think would be a bad idea if I were him given the dynamics which were describe, and you can include 99 to JJ type hands in his range then obviously you can get it in here.

oh....and finally....I'd expect his 5 bet to be a shove. You act like we are going to have a spot to 6 bet which probably wont be the case given the stack sizes.

 

Originally Posted by L1verpoolFC

i dont see anything wrong w a 4bet call/ shove
obv a flats terrible
but is a fold pre out of the question here w 45bb vs a player who hasnt 3 bet since being at the table?

Why is flat terrible?

Few have mentioned it already, but i don't see the problem in flatting here. Near 50bbs deep, i know we are out of pos but it can't be terrible to flat and get value from likes of JJ TT etc on a low flop, or get a c-bet bluff out of AK AQ. Can also get away from it if flop comes AKx

lol @ this thread, flat this all day erry day without reads. we could almost flat deuces profitably lulz, 4bet/getting it in doesn't look good in a micro but kinda oukay and absolutely laughing at the thought of EVER folding queens to a single min3bet

I think in this spot you can play it a couple maybe three different ways and you could easily randomize here. In all reality as long as you are in the 1.5 to 1 range for the 40% against the 5 bet range(in which you would be getting say if you 4 bet to 4400ish) it is close and if villian is not a lockdown nit and has some creativity or shows any sign of being capable this is not really a discussion because adding a hand or two in the range make this an easy 4 bet/call. You could really go either way between 4 bet/call or flat and just not crazy bout 4 bet min/f but I suppose some would say that is an option.

Peace