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Is backing another player ethical?

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  1. magicfingers magicfingers is offline

    Dallas, TX
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    Dec 28th, 2005 (12/28/2005 10:08am)

    I found this article on www.ESPN.com I wanted to get some opinions of others on what they think about what was said in this article. Something definitely should be done. <A target="_blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/poker/columns/story?columnist=rosenbloom_steve&id=2269129">

    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/poker/columns/story?columnist=rosenbloom_steve&id=2269129</A>
  2. grapsfan grapsfan is offline Head Curmudgeon

    Rosemount, MN
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    Dec 28th, 2005 (12/28/2005 10:42am) in reply to magicfingers

    Ethical is a fuzzy word in this case...because the issue isn't just backing people. It's backers playing in the same event as the backee. Billy Baxter backed Stu Ungar for many years, and it wasn't until the 1997 WSOP that they ended up at the same table (because Baxter usually didn't play the Main Event).

    I believe most pros who say that they don't modify their play at all when their backee ends up at the same table they do. But you never know, and I'm sure Barry Greenstein didn't make up the example where two guys slowplayed a flopped full house v. quads because they were tied to each other financially. It can happen, and it could really damage the game if a high-profile example ever came up (if Lyle Berman is still backing TJ Cloutier, let's say, and they end up at a table together while the Main Event is on the bubble).

    One potential solution is this:

    Any backer/backee relationships have to be declared ahead of time, they are clear and obvious to every player in the tournament, and the tournament directors do everything in their power to keep those players separated until both players have reached the money. Yeah, it's not really in keeping with the spirit of a random seating draw and table splitting, but rules are in place for tournament draws in other sports already (in MLB, two teams from the same division can't meet in the first round of the playoffs, for example).
     
  3. JB_Dawg JB_Dawg is offline

    Houston, TX
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    Dec 28th, 2005 (12/28/2005 1:17pm) in reply to grapsfan

    I agree about declaring the backing. That is the most reasonable way to deal with the problem, but I don't think you can limit directors in how they seat players since it is supposed to be random.

    On another point, I find it absolutely amazing that someone with TJ's success still continues to need to be backed. The amount he has "given" away b/c he can't manage money just boggles the mind. Ultimately, I beleive backing will decline as an issue b/c, rightly or wrongly, my sense is that players coming up today have much better money management skills. Call me crazy.
  4. Fearlez Fearlez is offline

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    Dec 28th, 2005 (12/28/2005 1:28pm) in reply to magicfingers

    I do not believe this problem can be cured. Its been going on for years and will be going on for years. How will they ever track someone giving someone else cash? I think the people slow playing the fullhouse and quads is crazy but that stands out and both players should be dealt with. I wouldn't change my play. Honestly. I know this example is hardly the same but i loaned my friend $10 to buy back into a home game and 2 hands later busted him again.
  5. paulpete paulpete is offline

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    Dec 28th, 2005 (12/28/2005 1:40pm) in reply to magicfingers

    I wonder if Todd Brunson gets backed by Doyle. You know how when your a kid and you have enough money for a movie but you still ask your parents for money anyways. I know he's made alot of money but it still would be funny to see this conversation take place...
    Todd: Daaaaaadddd Can I have ten thousand dollars????
    Doyle: What for??
    Todd: I want to play in the Main Event, just like you...
    Doyle: Take out the trash first, and then we'll talk.
  6. tamutaylor12 tamutaylor12 is offline

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    Dec 28th, 2005 (12/28/2005 1:48pm) in reply to JB_Dawg

    Whats up with TJ's money situation? He must literally be giving tons of money away to still be broke.
  7. grapsfan grapsfan is offline Head Curmudgeon

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    Dec 28th, 2005 (12/28/2005 2:06pm) in reply to Fearlez

    I'm not sure it's fair to call backing a "problem". As far as I know, there's never been a formally documented instance of where a tournament result was affected because of it. There may have been...I just don't know about it. My guess is that it's a bigger problem in cash games where it could have a more immediate impact on one game, the play of one pot, but that's purely a guess.

    As far as my idea goes in terms of seriously affecting a truly random draw, I'm not sure that'll happen all that often either. Let's say there's 100 backing relationships between players in the WSOP main event (I could be naive and say that's really low, but I'd think that's a high number, if anything). With 4 starting days, that cuts the potential pairings down to 25 or so (there's only a 1-in-4 chance that a backer will be put with his backee). With 200 starting tables, that means there's approximately a 12% chance that any one of them are seated together across the entire start of the tournament. Personally, I wouldn't mind if they tweaked any truly randow draw to deal with this situation...but from my very brief odds calculation, I don't see this as a rampant disease attacking the WSOP.

    There's a great story in "The Biggest Game in Town" about Doyle Brunson going over when Jack Binion and Eric Drache to "supervise the draw so that he doesn't randomly get put with Johnny Moss, Pug Pearson, Jesse Alto and Jack Straus, like every year."
     
  8. grapsfan grapsfan is offline Head Curmudgeon

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    Dec 28th, 2005 (12/28/2005 2:09pm) in reply to tamutaylor12

    Hold on...I don't know anything about the Cloutier's finances, and I'll bet you don't either. So let's not make any assumptions.

    Just because he's been backed by Lyle Berman doesn't mean that he's short of money at all. Like several people (myself included) wrote about in another thread on backing, people choose to get staked for many reasons other than they're broke. In many circumstances, it can be a very prudent risk management strategy to help balance out the difficulties in paying for a very expensive profession if you're losing.
     
  9. grapsfan grapsfan is offline Head Curmudgeon

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    Dec 28th, 2005 (12/28/2005 2:14pm) in reply to paulpete

    I'm pretty sure the answer to that is "no". Doyle's been not all that supportive of Todd's career (other than being proud of his son). Doyle's philosophy, as I've heard, is that he wants Todd to make it on his own, to the point of paying Mike Caro to give Todd lessons rather than giving advice himself.

    That's a funny dialogue, though.
     
  10. MichaelCraig MichaelCraig is offline

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    Dec 28th, 2005 (12/28/2005 11:37pm) in reply to paulpete

    It was actually the opposite, like Vito and Michael Corleone in THE GODFATHER. The godfather (Doyle) wanted to use his wealth and influence to insulate his son from the hand world in which he succeeded. They didn't discuss "the family business." The son (Todd) was sent away to school, to develop a respectable profession. But, without the father's knowledge, the son jumped in.

    I covered this in Chapter Nine of SUICIDE KING. It was a riot when Doyle told me that was furious with Doyle when they learned Todd was quitting college to play poker. Doyle told me, "I didn't know he even knew how to play."

    Michael Craig
  11. let me on ub let me on ub is offline

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    Dec 28th, 2005 (12/28/2005 11:43pm) in reply to magicfingers

    absolutely not, anyone wana back me few on stars?
  12. scramble scramble is offline

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    Dec 29th, 2005 (12/29/2005 12:40am) in reply to let me on ub

    im waiting for the sponsor exemptions to become more of an issue.. wait till levitra gets to put players in.. or the borgata becomes the pepsi open with 20 regional vice prsidents getting free entries... or each 60 second commercial purchased from espn gets an enrty as a comp.. that will make things interesting. players owning a piece of each other is not that big a deal if its disclosed
  13. drphil jr drphil jr is offline

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    Dec 29th, 2005 (12/29/2005 1:12am) in reply to scramble

    One things for sure, it neither an individual sport nor a team sport, simply because its not a sport :)
     
  14. scramble scramble is offline

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    Dec 29th, 2005 (12/29/2005 1:14am) in reply to magicfingers

    wait for it..... drug testing
  15. perma_tilt perma_tilt is offline

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    Dec 29th, 2005 (12/29/2005 5:00am) in reply to scramble

    drug testing and main event be back down to 300 people next year
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