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bad play at the sunday million?

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  1. zhiv zhiv is offline

    Austria

    Posts: 10
    Joined: Mar 08

    Mar 25th, 2008 (3/25/2008 6:46am)

    hi,

    the last sundaymillion:
    about 50 min in play. i made a bluff that didnt work early on and was down to about 6500 (10000 starting stack). i calmed down a little bit and then i got more agressive to get my chips back. the last 2 orbits i was raising about 6 or 7 times preflop and took the blindes or took the pot with a contibet. so i knew somebody will make a stand aggainst me soon. then the following hand accured:

    pokerstars Game #16196692351: Tournament #80983913, $200+$15 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (150/300) - 2008/03/23 - 17:26:07 (ET)
    Table '80983913 495' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
    Seat 1: stupid67 (8350 in chips) is sitting out
    Seat 2: horee (6830 in chips)
    Seat 3: matpoade (13990 in chips)
    Seat 4: zhivago2 (8665 in chips)
    Seat 5: alexxis1980 (9745 in chips)
    Seat 6: rickL-UNIT (15220 in chips)
    Seat 7: Toudal (10975 in chips)
    Seat 8: PlayWMyNuts (20575 in chips)
    Seat 9: AAB"71" (9675 in chips)
    rickL-UNIT: posts small blind 150
    Toudal: posts big blind 300
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to zhivago2 [Jh Jd]
    PlayWMyNuts: folds
    AAB"71": folds
    stupid67: folds
    horee: folds
    matpoade: folds
    zhivago2: raises 480 to 780
    alexxis1980: raises 1620 to 2400
    rickL-UNIT: folds
    Toudal: folds
    zhivago2: calls 1620
    *** FLOP *** [3c 6d Qs]
    zhivago2: bets 6265 and is all-in
    alexxis1980: calls 6265
    *** TURN *** [3c 6d Qs] [Ah]
    *** RIVER *** [3c 6d Qs Ah] [8s]
    AAB"71" said, "omgnh"
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    zhivago2: shows [Jh Jd] (a pair of Jacks)
    alexxis1980: shows [Kc Kd] (a pair of Kings)
    alexxis1980 collected 17780 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 17780 | Rake 0
    Board [3c 6d Qs Ah 8s]
    Seat 1: stupid67 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 2: horee folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 3: matpoade folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 4: zhivago2 showed [Jh Jd] and lost with a pair of Jacks
    Seat 5: alexxis1980 (button) showed [Kc Kd] and won (17780) with a pair of Kings
    Seat 6: rickL-UNIT (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 7: Toudal (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 8: PlayWMyNuts folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 9: AAB"71" folded before Flop (didn't bet)

    in that hand ( i had JJ) i got reraised preflop the first time by a tight player having pos. on me.
    now here are my thoughts:
    i have JJ and a very loose tableimage. i give this player the following range (88+, ATs+, AQo+) because of my loose TI (maybe thats a bit optimistic because he was a tight player so far).

    aggainst this range i´m a 54% fav. so what do i do?

    -fold? i thought, a fold would be very weak in this spot with my TI.

    -reshove? i thought that a shove would have almost no foldequity ( it was a tight player). and i didnt want to race with ak or so preflop.

    -stop and go? call the raise and shove oop about potsize on the flop when no A or K is there. i thought this play is best because i could gain some foldequity against Ak what would have called preflop for sure. so i do this.
    the guy thinks for hours and i´m sure im ahead right now. eventually he calls with KK (which would have been an instacall on a Q rag rag board on my side) and wins the pot.

    i would be very pleased to hear your opinions about the hand and the situation.

    very excited to be in this forum

    zhiv
     
  2. MasterJNeel MasterJNeel is offline

    Gent
    Belgium

    Posts: 44
    Joined: Dec 07

    Mar 25th, 2008 (3/25/2008 12:15pm) in reply to zhiv

    I think that your preflop play is ok. But you should be aware that you are oop with JJ, which is a terrible hand to be oop with. If your plan really was stop 'n go, it was well executed obv.
    My question is: if you would've checked on the flop, were you planning of putting all your chips in it when the guy bets/shoves?
    Based on your image you have created, I guess his raisingrange is indeed a bit wider. You know someone will take a stand at you sooner or later. Still, do you expect to be made that play by a tight player? In my opinion, a tight player only 3 bets with JJ+ and AQ+... A tight player calls in position with 77+ and AT+.
    A fold preflop would be extremely tight obv, but with JJ oop and a 3bet preflop in your face I think you should slow down.

    What i would do is following: I would've bet like 2-3k on the pot (which is about 5k). He is obv a tight player and doens't want his week-event, the million, to see ending early with a failed 'herocall'. I don't think, considering he's pretty tight, will call any pair from 77-99, from which i also don't think he'd raise with preflop.
    If he reshoves at your flopbet you still have FE (pretty boarder, but you still have about 4k to play with). If he just calls and the ace hits the turn, you can still walk away pretty easily.
     
  3. NOtoDaY NOtoDaY is offline

    Brookfield, CT
    United States

    Posts: 678
    Joined: Sep 07

    Mar 25th, 2008 (3/25/2008 12:25pm) in reply to MasterJNeel

    me thinks u were just unlucky to run into a larger hand. w/ ur active image the pf action is def. good for us, again just ul to run into a larger hand. wp, ul, etc.
  4. The Universe The Universe is offline

    Amherst, MA
    United States

    Posts: 391
    Joined: Nov 07

    Mar 25th, 2008 (3/25/2008 12:25pm) in reply to zhiv

    I think you need to stop watching poker on tv. People dont really take a stand against you w.o antes no matter how aggro you are especially tight players in the sunday million. You also shouldnt be afraid to play a race...its really not a bad spot to get it in. Secondly, the post flop shove is turning your hand into a bluff...you may as well hae 72o because all better hands are going to call and all worse hands are going to fold. If you think you have 54 percent equity against his range you should be shoving preflop but if you do just call preflop you should be check raising this flop so that you get the most value from hands you beat...that is if you want to get all your money in on this flop.
     
  5. chknpotpie chknpotpie is offline

    Posts: 1,045
    Joined: Jan 07

    Mar 25th, 2008 (3/25/2008 1:25pm) in reply to zhiv

    i dont think you could have played it worse. Preflop, make the decision to fold or push it. Calling off that much of your stack oop is bad.

    On the flop, b/c you smooth called, pushing there give you no value whatsoever. All hands that you are beating will most likely fold with the exception of TT 99, and your beat by a good chunk of his range. If you think he has air and he missed than why not check riase push. There is no value in just instapushing
  6. zhiv zhiv is offline

    Austria

    Posts: 10
    Joined: Mar 08

    Mar 25th, 2008 (3/25/2008 1:44pm) in reply to chknpotpie

    thanks all of u for ur anwser,

    but actually i got totally different replies.

    i see that there is very little value in pushing on the flop, though.
    if i think it over now i only get calls from hands that have me beat.
    so the best play is to push preflop (because i think i´ve 54% equity) or fold there (because i really knew he was a tight player)?

    hope to see some other opinions.

    zhiv
     
    Thread Starter
  7. qjuice14 qjuice14 is offline

    Posts: 3,989
    Joined: Aug 07

    Mar 25th, 2008 (3/25/2008 2:00pm) in reply to zhiv

    i don't think you are completely understanding all of the advice being offered. If you really believe that you are 54% against his range preflop (which you admittedly said might be genorous) then yes, pushing pre is probably the best solution.

    However, tight players aren't going to spew off chips that lightly here so you may need to adjust your ranges differently. We can't help you with the other players range not having played with him - but most tight players are reraising 1010+ AQs....so you may want to give more consideration to folding here which should be a completely player dependent read decision
     
  8. mordan mordan is offline

    NC
    United States

    Posts: 3,809
    Joined: Jul 05

    Mar 25th, 2008 (3/25/2008 2:00pm) in reply to zhiv

    If you feel that your image is really that loose than this is easy shove preflop. But consider this, one of my biggest leaks personally was overvaluing my image on the table and thus making decisions that in my mind were +EV based on my supposed image. but in all reality people don't pay attn. enough online to justify those types of reads determining your decision making.

    That being said I still think overall this is standard shove preflop in the stars lotto million. A good range IMO to stove would be 88+ and AJs-AQs+ thats pretty tight too
     
  9. SpauldingSmails SpauldingSmails is offline

    Forestdale, MA
    United States

    Posts: 327
    Joined: Jun 07

    Mar 25th, 2008 (3/25/2008 4:08pm) in reply to qjuice14

    people generally don't 3 bet with hands <JJ imo... especially early when blind stealing is simply unimportant and more risk than reward....

    your line is terrible.... if you shoved pre, i think its a little better than flatting and then shoving...he basically HAS to have AK to make this the optimal line...and AK is def in his range

    but i'd say you were a bit too animated getting involved so often, so early...

    learn some patience/
  10. mikeand mikeand is offline

    Hermosa Beach, CA
    United States

    Posts: 759
    Joined: Mar 07

    Mar 25th, 2008 (3/25/2008 4:25pm) in reply to zhiv

    shove or fold preflop... with the range that you put villian on, shove.

    y the hell did u decided to stop and go?? worse line possible, imo. like earlier poster said,, you basically are turning your hand into 72.. if he has 88-jj or ak.. you are getting no value. as played check call/raise allin on flop.
     
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