calling here 100% of the time. especially with your stack. ur ahead mathematically majority of the time. pokerstove it ftw.

i either raise/call or shove in such a spot. since it will be a flip most of the time and u can avoid flipping a lot of times if u just jam pre (Kx typa hands, SCs,... cant really call but can profitably rejam on u). so i prefer just shoving pre. and btw, if he was agro i prolly just call pre, he will raise our limp most of the times and we can jam, he will fold most of his hands out.

 

Originally Posted by MorbidMentality

Is jamming worth it in this spot though? You have close to 70bb i dont think id like to risk losing a portion of my big stack to add very little in such circumstances. As the line is played i believe i would muck the hand. Id love to see more thoughts on this hand though

So you would not make a massively plus ev jam to avoid the risk of losing a stack? That's not how you play MTTs, you can't pass on a spot like this. With more than 20 BBs I side to raise calling opposed to just jamming. If the villain is likely to flat and float a lot I side to jamming.

 

Originally Posted by mapunk

Shoving in this spot is unexploitable. You could show him your hand, shove, and his calling range will never be +cEV.

Whether or not raise/calling or open shoving is the better option is completely dependent on your read on the villain and his perceived read on you.

Looks like a jam vs. randoms and r/c vs. aggro regs who are capable of blasting it in there w/ Ax and Kx. Since you said he was laggy, r/c seems best here. Competent aggro players won't even hesitate to re-shove here with 22-44

I'm not a fan of calling with this hand. Raise / call is high variance, he can re-ship a huge range and we are flipping a lot. I guess it's a personal choice.

Limp shoving looks good.

As played I'm calling.

problem you guys dont mention is competent player will shove when you limp and not raise with this stack!!!beside ur not traping there with 55!!!

I d raise/call vs competent agro player and shove vs stations

To the people saying limp/reshove. What's your plan postflop if villain checks his option?

 

Originally Posted by RedIceRap

With 20bb any pocket gonna rejam. But ppl struggle to jam a 20bb stack if we limp. So vs his T8s or whatever were flippin, but if he was very agro why not limp/shove on him, since i dont think many players will just shove there, they will just raise. Am i the only one who thinks thats by far the best play vs that villain in that spot? How is he gonna continue with hands thats not like AJ+ or PPs? 55 is not an inducing hand like. We know his moves before he does them. So why not exploit that: limp, he raises, we shove, he mucks 89s. With 20bb i think many players decide to gamble here with 22+ anyway. And even if he shoves on our limp we still can call, if we planned to raise call him anyway. Its important to avoid some flips by getting it in first imo (jam or check-raise-jam). Raise call all day with something like 77+ and AT+, since we want him to get it in with these typa hands.

i think that sometimes this is okay vs the right type of player but def not as a "go to" in this spot.

First of all if he is competent, I expect him to shove 89s and a ton of other hands when we limp. Good players aren't really r/f this spot all that often since a limp reps weakness and when the 20bb stack jams it picks up ~15% of its stack.

if we know that the villain isn't flatting often then it's r/c

if we don't know what the villain is going to do it's a straight up shove.

r/f is not good.

 

Originally Posted by iamthedeck ftw

I just don't see how the bb is just jamming over 21bbs into a limp (assuming you guys are saying he's doing it with the same range as he would facing a raise). I mean the bb has position on a limper with no players left behind. We have the experience to outplay postflop in position so how can we not favor a small raise (2.2bb) to show strength.
I feel like the advice given in poker discussion by the regs is super spew and based on whatever is unexploitable, when in reality there is a lot more room for play, even against a solid opponent. You just gotta balance ranges more imo.

Not completely sure what you're getting at. If you're the bb, raising in this spot makes your life incredibly difficult. The bb often jams here because playing post flop with 21bbs sucks, even in position.

For example, let's play out the bb raising instead of shoving. Once the sb limps, you can't raise to 2.2bbs. You have to raise to 3-4bbs. At this point the pot is 7-9bbs and you c-bet 4-5bbs. Now you have ~13bbs behind and a pot that has 17-20bbs in it if the sb flats. You're committed to shoving the turn even if you completely missed the board or folding and leaving yourself super short, which is a really shitty spot to put yourself in.

Shoving pre with all/most of your range makes this spot so much easier to play. If you're going to balance your range in a spot like this, balance it in other ways (e.g., raise/call the top and raise/fold the bottom of your range while jamming the middle). In addition, when we're shoving bvb it's usually against weaker players so there's no need to balance your range, you just need to extract max value.

 

Originally Posted by tyson219

Not completely sure what you're getting at. If you're the bb, raising in this spot makes your life incredibly difficult. The bb often jams here because playing post flop with 21bbs sucks, even in position.

For example, let's play out the bb raising instead of shoving. Once the sb limps, you can't raise to 2.2bbs. You have to raise to 3-4bbs. At this point the pot is 7-9bbs and you c-bet 4-5bbs. Now you have ~13bbs behind and a pot that has 17-20bbs in it if the sb flats. You're committed to shoving the turn even if you completely missed the board or folding and leaving yourself super short, which is a really shitty spot to put yourself in.

Shoving pre with all/most of your range makes this spot so much easier to play. If you're going to balance your range in a spot like this, balance it in other ways (e.g., raise/call the top and raise/fold the bottom of your range while jamming the middle). In addition, when we're shoving bvb it's usually against weaker players so there's no need to balance your range, you just need to extract max value.

I mean that's just awful imo. I know I have small raises in comparison to most winning players but making it 3-4bbs in position? How much do you raise from the small blind in blind vs blind situations? My sizing of 2.2x gives me a cbet of 2bb into a 5.5bb pot (more than enough this short in position imo), a turn bet or 3.5bb/9.5bb and a nice river shove of 13bb into a pot of 16.5bb. You would be surprised how much respect a triple barrel gets.

i shove there like all the time and put the decision on him ... his re shove range is huge there with stack sizes why r/c and take a race most of the time ... i just hate calling his shove 2 race there, shoving is profitable for sure ...isnt that what this games all about? curious as to what very good players stop shoving @ there ?

 

Originally Posted by RedIceRap

C/f or taking 1 potsized stab?! Whats the problem with giving up postflop there? That post sounds like were fcked if he checks, but were not.

OK.

Folding:
Horrible.

Raise/Call Shove:
We're flipping most of the time against any combination that doesn't contain a 2, 3, 4 or 5. Since he's LAG he will shove most of times over our raise and will rather rarely just fold. Think we rule out that he flats, not impossible, tho.

Open jam:
Standard unexploitable and profitable shove.

Limp/Shove (or limp/give up if BB checks his option):
He's registered at P5s. Does that mean he's competent? He's a losing player since 5 years by the way. OP said he's LAG, that's all. A limp looks weak, so unless we're trapping he expects us to fold even to a 3,5BB raise. So why should he risk 21BB and shove over a limp? If he has the crap you usually get in the BB and he's LAG why not using this information and get that extra value by make him putting more money into the pot? I mean if he shoves over the limp he will shove over a raise all day, so we can exclude raise/call shove, since we will call anyway. That's that extra value I don't want to pass on: the probability that he puts more money in the pot and fold a hand to a shove that else would be flipping against our hand.

Disadvantage: He could check his option and we "lost" 2BB + antes. But that's nothing compared to what we win in the long run if we take this line against a lag random. Very surprising that people think he will just shove 21BB over a limp, since I'm pretty sure most players won't do this.

I'd love to see your math here. What % of his range will he raise and fold to your limp/jam? What % will he raise call? How often will he check his option?

You are burning money here limping unless you have a pretty specific read/dynamic that he will r/f a significant percentage of the time even tho his stack makes it kinda awkward.

Snap call. blind vs blind and you say he's laggy he could turn over so many hands in this spot.

I think considering stack sizes shoving is pretty optimal. I guess limp calling his inevitable shove is ok, but I'd say I'm shoving 95% of the time for reasons stated above. Don't think we need such long discussion points

I prob open jam here most of the time and raise/call the rest. I don't think raise/folding is gonna be profitable long term. His range here should be pretty wide w/21bbs. Put yourself in his spot and ask what would I be shoving here in his spot, and then make your read on the player, is he more or less aggressive than you, and take out some of the hands accordingly.

As far as the raise sizing, I agree with Tyson. If it folds to me in the SB and I'm gonna raise, i don't go 2.2 +/-. I usually make it closer to 3x or 2.75x. If the SB limps and I'm gonna raise the BB, It's always 3-3.25x. If you're on the button and the CU limps, do you still just 2.2x it? I don't but idk if thats correct. I feel this is a similar situation. I understand you have position but raising another 1.2bbs after the SB limps accomplishes nothing. He's going to call that raise with any hand that he completes with and all you've done is bloat a pot a miniscual amount.