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Battle of the Blinds: When does a bluff-shove from the BB becomes an overshove?

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  1. Mindthis Mindthis is offline

    Ottawa
    Canada

    Posts: 133
    Joined: Feb 09

    Sep 11th, 2010 (9/11/2010 11:56pm)

    We see it all the time. We're in the big blind. Everyone folds to the small blind. Small blind limps. Often just to see a flop, but on a few occasions with a monster hand, ready to call a shove.

    My question is: where should be the bluff-shove cutoff? In order words, how many big blinds must a player have so that a shove becomes an overshove and instead the raise-bluff should be a simple 3x or 4x raise?

    The reason I'm asking this is that I've fallen victim to many traps recently and regretted not 3x or 4x-ing and then folding to what would have probably been a limp-jam by my opponent. If he's trapping, I lose more than I should. If he's not trapping, I risk more than I should. So, not going all in seems smart. The only inconvenient I see with the 3x or 4x raise instead of the shove is that it leaves the door open for a good player to make a play by limp-shoving his own mediocre hand, and a bad player can call the extra 2x or 3x to see a flop with his own garbage (and probably doesn't fold the flop if he hits anything at all).

    I've shoved 20 BBs into traps in this spot a few times recently. I'd say shoving becomes too risky when you have 15BB+ (assuming the tournament is non-turbo and the average stack has 25 BBs late). Sounds about right?
     
  2. bef99hwk bef99hwk is offline

    Manhattan, KS
    United States

    Posts: 7,332
    Joined: Apr 07

    Sep 12th, 2010 (9/12/2010 12:15am) in reply to Mindthis

    If ur in position you really don't have to jam weaker stuff...ur in position so use it. The only reason for jamming bvb is cuz ur OOP the other way around. If you aren't calling, don't raise. Usually it's lower pairs, weaker A's, etc that l/shove anyway. But yeah, usually not really needing to jam wide unless ur really short imo
  3. poisoneye1986 poisoneye1986 is offline

    Cincinnati, OH
    United States

    Posts: 4,852
    Joined: Oct 07

    Sep 12th, 2010 (9/12/2010 12:27am) in reply to bef99hwk

    if i got 20 bbs i dont think theres much need to shove crazy wide. id probbaly still do do it w/ A2+ broadway and 22+.
  4. cneuy3 cneuy3 is offline

    Chiang Mai
    Thailand

    Posts: 105
    Joined: Jun 06

    Sep 12th, 2010 (9/12/2010 12:32am) in reply to bef99hwk

    It all depends on the villian in the SB. If the villian is some 40/5 type guy that blindly calls just about any two cards out of SB when folded to then obviously raise/shove with almost any two cards. He just has way to much crap in his range to actually call a shove the majority of the time and you will show a long term profit on your raise/shove.

    However if the villian is a competent player then you will need to adjust. A player like this has a predetermined plan of how he will re- act to your raise or shove from the BB. So when he completes from the SB you have to consider that.
    Edited By: cneuy3 Sep 12th, 2010 at 12:36 AM
  5. bef99hwk bef99hwk is offline

    Manhattan, KS
    United States

    Posts: 7,332
    Joined: Apr 07

    Sep 12th, 2010 (9/12/2010 3:21am) in reply to cneuy3

    I love getting limp/trapped by the ole K6o or QJo! You know, where they limp, you shove A6 or something, and now that you forced them to put all their chips they have to call cuz it's too tempting!
  6. royalStud royalStud is offline

    Davenport, IA
    United States

    Posts: 465
    Joined: Dec 07

    Sep 12th, 2010 (9/12/2010 4:30am) in reply to bef99hwk

    Great question. This site needs more questions like this. I'd be interested to hear some more opinions.
  7. rivverkiller rivverkiller is online now

    White Rock
    Canada

    Posts: 6,350
    Joined: Feb 06

    Sep 12th, 2010 (9/12/2010 8:27am) in reply to royalStud

    Depends on how often you think villain will be limp/folding.
     
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