I dont mind a fold. .but Id probably raise.

Folding here is out of the question.

3x raise and what? Fold to who, and call who?

3x raise and what? Fold to who, and call who?

Your reads on players behind you obv weighs heavily into this question.

 

Originally Posted by looshle

Folding here is out of the question.

i think i fold

I think I raise like 2.6x and call any one shover, but fold if somehow 2 people go all in. i could understand if u wanted to raise/fold to a shove if you thought their range was 88+,AQ,AK or something, but let's not be scared to accumulate. i do not want to call or fold pre, I think the main queston is what to do when shoved on.

well if i do raise im calling any shover. which isnt necessarily bad but its gonna be really marginal

 

Originally Posted by adam_mc

Perhaps it is the Scandanavian in me talking but I raise call from everybody, and 4 bet shove on the big stack without any reads of them being extreme nits.

I think we can raise/fold to the big stack. His range is going to be pretty tight because I can cripple him and he wil be committed to the 3 people behind him if they wake up with a hand.

I agree that we are going to have to call the other 3 if they shove. With that said, what are the pros/cons of open shoving if you intend to call anyone but 1 person?

Does the big stack necessarily have to be strong to 3 bet? I agree raise folding versus him is entirely within the realm of possibility but the short stacks are going to have to wake up with TT+ AQs+ at the loosest to be the 4 better here I think, so his 3 bet doesn't have to neccesitate strength. Again this is contingent on the fact that he is at all intelligent.

The pro of open shoving is you don't allow KTss to 3 bet shove on you and be forced to flip etc., but at the same time you risk running into a hand of a big stack and being eliminated. You also turn your hand face up allowing everybody to play perfectly against you. This all goes back to the exploitable/optimal argument that keeps getting rehashed around here. When I saw this hand I knew this would be the point you were going to bring up though because for all intents and purposes this is a standard raise call versus all short stacks and raise/shove raise/fold versus the big stack depending on reads.

As for open shoving we can indeed argue that it is unexploitable etc etc etc but it goes back to optimality. I dunno, I am not a proponent of it personally. If the big stack didn't exist I would think that an open shove has a lot more merit. For all the times you eliminate somebody 3 betting all in with hands that can't call a shove but you are flipping against, versus all the times you get those hands to fold it would just come down to math. I am too lazy to do all those calculations but surely both are +cEV.

 

Originally Posted by RoyalCrusher

 

Originally Posted by looshle

Folding here is out of the question.

i think i fold

agreed, I dont think a fold is bad at all given stack sizes yet to act.

That calling range is equivalent for all of them I assume, and if so you are saying 96% of the time you can shove and pick up the dead 9k? Then shoving ATC here becomes profitable I would think. Also if that is the big stacks calling range, is his 3 betting range going to be much wider? Under your assumption before he will only be 3 betting big hands because of the short stacks so now we can safely assume that if he 3 bets it will likely be AQ+ 88+, so we can always raise fold to him. You still leave yoruself open to a light shove that you are racing with in the other three stacks but now you have this extra information.

ALso not all players are insta shipping like QJ here versus your open, so their 3 betting ranges would be helpful to know what % of hands they are shoving on your open. Raise calling also allows them to 3 bet shove 22-66, as well as A2-A7 which you are not racing versus. I am sure it is +cEV to shove here, but that doesn't neccesitate open shoving all of your mid pairs here.

It really boils down to the math of how much do we win by shoving versus how much do we win by raise calling assuming that he shoves like top 20% the other times we are winning 9k uncontested.

 

Originally Posted by adam_mc

That calling range is equivalent for all of them I assume, and if so you are saying 96% of the time you can shove and pick up the dead 9k? Then shoving ATC here becomes profitable I would think. Also if that is the big stacks calling range, is his 3 betting range going to be much wider? Under your assumption before he will only be 3 betting big hands because of the short stacks so now we can safely assume that if he 3 bets it will likely be AQ+ 88+, so we can always raise fold to him. You still leave yoruself open to a light shove that you are racing with in the other three stacks but now you have this extra information.

ALso not all players are insta shipping like QJ here versus your open, so their 3 betting ranges would be helpful to know what % of hands they are shoving on your open. Raise calling also allows them to 3 bet shove 22-66, as well as A2-A7 which you are not racing versus. I am sure it is +cEV to shove here, but that doesn't neccesitate open shoving all of your mid pairs here.

It really boils down to the math of how much do we win by shoving versus how much do we win by raise calling assuming that he shoves like top 20% the other times we are winning 9k uncontested.

No, I think the big stack folds 96% of the time. The other 3 should have wider calling ranges.

Also, assuming they do have the same calling range, I wouldn't be picking them up uncontested 96% of the time, it would be 84% since there is a 4% chance for each of the 4 remaining players to call.

 

Originally Posted by DoubleS00ted

 

Originally Posted by RoyalCrusher

 

Originally Posted by looshle

Folding here is out of the question.

i think i fold

agreed, I dont think a fold is bad at all given stack sizes yet to act.

The more i think about this spot, i think folding is probably best. 88+ AQ+ is prlly my opening range in this spot with the stacks sizes left to act.

raise/call BTN/SB/BB and raise/fold CO > open-shove > fold > anything else these clowns want to do like 5x/fold

Bleh, my math sucks.

Edit posttt.