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To Bluff or not to Bluff?

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  1. l3astard l3astard is offline

    New Zealand

    Posts: 36
    Joined: Apr 09

    Oct 28th, 2009 (10/28/2009 9:24pm)

    Im having some doubts that bluffing even works online I play lower stakes so I know its stupid to even try bluff. Anyone feeling the same obviously everyone bluffs late tourney, but even now sb and bb will comonly call u with q high. I played some $24 buy in tourneys and it seem that some of them have the ability to lay down a hand any insight as to when people dont call all in on the flop with 55 on a A J 4 flop? because they were still doing that at $24? Or is that just the way people roll online?
  2. deezy5821 deezy5821 is offline

    Lawrenceville, GA
    United States

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    Oct 28th, 2009 (10/28/2009 9:42pm) in reply to l3astard

    Its going to be a lot harder to bluff online especially in the lower buy ins. Trust me I know.
     
  3. jtown1010 jtown1010 is offline

    United States

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    Oct 28th, 2009 (10/28/2009 9:47pm) in reply to deezy5821

    If you're getting called with Q high, "bluff" with K high.

    AKA value betting
  4. rayspizza rayspizza is offline

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    Oct 28th, 2009 (10/28/2009 10:04pm) in reply to deezy5821

    I think it is important to remember that most of your money will not comes from bluffs. Your money comes from having a balanced betting range that creates enough doubt in your opponents to induce calls from a weaker range of hands. This way when you bluff you will not care about the result, because you realize that bluffing is something that must be done in order to maximize the value of your holding.

    In general though, bluffing has far less value against Droolers, because they are just not thinking about the frequency that you are betting. so the old adage "bluff less; Value bet more" is a good rule to follow at the lower limits. As you move up though and the players become more sophisticated they will be able to exploit you based on your betting percentage.

    lets say that you only have a 3-bet percentage of 1% PF, well that will get you minimal action when you 3-bet - which sucks because you always have QQ+. However if you raise that 3 bet %, your opponents will adjust their calling/4 betting range accordingly and you will get more action. The difficult part is designing a 3-betting range that maximizes your equity against your opponents. For something like $24 tourneys, this can be a simple as creating a range to play against the entire field or one that changes based on level, chip stack, etc... as you get towards nosebleeds you will start catering your 3 bet % based on opponents.

    OBV Im just speaking in generalities here. I am not willing or qualified to get in depth on this subject. I'm just saying this is the basic strategy when it comes to bluffing.
  5. Deoxyribo Deoxyribo is offline

    Costa Mesa, CA
    United States

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    Oct 28th, 2009 (10/28/2009 10:14pm) in reply to rayspizza

    i dont bluff

    i only bet.
     
  6. l3astard l3astard is offline

    New Zealand

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    Oct 29th, 2009 (10/29/2009 2:45pm) in reply to rayspizza

    So old on one second here little light may have just went off. When people are polarizing there range. They are really 3 betting more early in tournaments to through huds off so three bets get called more when you do it late with real hands? I always wondered why trying to polarizing your range would have any significance in mtts. I guess everyone uses huds or am I way off?
    Thread Starter
  7. SpauldingSmails SpauldingSmails is offline

    Forestdale, MA
    United States

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    Oct 29th, 2009 (10/29/2009 2:47pm) in reply to l3astard

    "Bluff less value bet more" is an old adage? since when?
  8. l3astard l3astard is offline

    New Zealand

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    Oct 29th, 2009 (10/29/2009 3:01pm) in reply to Deoxyribo

     
    Originally Posted by Deoxyribo View Post

    i dont bluff

    i only bet.

    Haha well put maybe if I just start betting instead of bluffing.
    Thread Starter
  9. louiemdj louiemdj is offline

    Monett, MO
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    Oct 29th, 2009 (10/29/2009 3:04pm) in reply to l3astard

    It's all circumstantial.

    What's the board look like?

    Is the player capable of making a big lay down?

    What are they calling with in the first place?

    Are you a donk?

    Are you actually making a realistic bet/bluff or just spewing chips?

    There's many more questions to ask, but you get the idea?
  10. l3astard l3astard is offline

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    Oct 29th, 2009 (10/29/2009 3:53pm) in reply to louiemdj

    Thats what im trying to say your second question there. I only attempt to "Bet" them off it If I think I can, Im not going to throw money away. I have played for quite some time now so no I am not a donk. I would say im knocked out of 7 out of 10 tournaments when im the fav when the money goes in sometimes they have odds to call sometimes not but I cannot seem to get away with any bluffs. What I was asking was are people capable of making laydowns in 10 dollar or less tournaments online?

    Its kind of weird because in a live game I play its a 10 rebuy every week. You just cannot bluff it and there are the dumbest people ever. ie Someone raises, someone will go all in and people will call with 6 9s etc just drunk idiots. It just doesnt bother me live. But online it frustrates the hell out of me. I think because I can see that the person is obviously a idiot it deoesnt bother me that they are. But online I expect them to be good.
    Thread Starter
  11. rayspizza rayspizza is offline

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    Oct 29th, 2009 (10/29/2009 4:05pm) in reply to SpauldingSmails

     
    Originally Posted by SpauldingSmails View Post


    "Bluff less value bet more" is an old adage? since when?

    since the dawn of time.

    Don't be a retard, it is a figure of speech.

    Do you disagree with the saying in the context that I used. Because I would be very willing to have that discussion.
  12. rivercats rivercats is offline

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    Oct 29th, 2009 (10/29/2009 4:30pm) in reply to l3astard

    i think if you can pick out the Level 2 players at the table, you can pretty easily bluff them.
  13. Frank1The1Tank Frank1The1Tank is offline

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    Oct 29th, 2009 (10/29/2009 6:11pm) in reply to l3astard

    You can bluff at lower stakes too, just pick your spots better. And yeah value bet way thinner, mtters cant seem to do this. When an mtter has showdown value all they think is pot control. But if people aren't folding anything to you, then value bet those showdown value hands instead.
     
  14. l3astard l3astard is offline

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    Oct 30th, 2009 (10/30/2009 8:27am) in reply to Frank1The1Tank

    Thanks for input guys guess I have to bluff less I dont think I bluff to often but if I do bluff I follow through like I dont usally pull out which is er kinda bad ill often c-bet the turn if they float me lol.
    Thread Starter
  15. G.I. Ace G.I. Ace is offline

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    Oct 30th, 2009 (10/30/2009 8:40am) in reply to l3astard

    Well if they are calling down your bluffs it should be pretty easy to get paid off when you do have hands, I'd figure? :) So when you have it, value bet it.
  16. Nuggett Nuggett is offline

    United Kingdom

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    Oct 30th, 2009 (10/30/2009 9:40am) in reply to louiemdj

     
    Originally Posted by louiemdj View Post

    It's all circumstantial.

    What's the board look like?

    Is the player capable of making a big lay down?

    What are they calling with in the first place?

    Are you a donk?

    Are you actually making a realistic bet/bluff or just spewing chips?

    There's many more questions to ask, but you get the idea?

    This sort of stuff

    Bluffing is doable under the right criteria, is the opp a calling station? whats your image at the table? is it believable that you have what your representing? is the river a scare card to their range? is there fold equity? what pot odds are you giving them to call? does the stage of tourney have an effect on their decision.........

    In short, it has to be believable or a read, you have to pick spots better

    Plus most low stakes "put" people on a bluff far too often, so adjust and get paid better when you have the goods
  17. lordxixor101 lordxixor101 is offline

    Westland, MI
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    Oct 30th, 2009 (10/30/2009 10:12am) in reply to l3astard

    I play lower levels, and I find it funny, because bluffs do work. I think it depends on the type of bluffs.

    As an example (and I'm not saying this is a good play). Call a raise oop preflop. K104 2 clubs, check/call. check call 7 spades turn. Now, 9 clubs on river, you bet. You could have any hand, but this will work most of the time, unless he has a flush (or AK).

    Now, intricate bluffs that make people think you have a set, isn't going to work. But, simple board bets on scary boards, or old classics like the button raise with nothing (and a cbet on an A high board) work extremely well.
  18. funnygut funnygut is offline gone hollywood

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    Oct 30th, 2009 (10/30/2009 2:58pm) in reply to Frank1The1Tank

     
    Originally Posted by Frank1The1Tank View Post

    You can bluff at lower stakes too, just pick your spots better. And yeah value bet way thinner, mtters cant seem to do this. When an mtter has showdown value all they think is pot control. But if people aren't folding anything to you, then value bet those showdown value hands instead.

    hidden shoutout to SirSwish6
     
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