nate- to sum up, you're saying that basically they are going to try and supply more cash fish - who die off slower - giving regulars a reason to stay.

But on the tourney side, since frankly ditching huds. pokerdb etc won't make any difference at all to the speed at which they bust or bink, they are effectively doing nothing to promote/improve traffic. Removing the TLB etc. doesn't bother me by the way, but unless they plow that money back into tournament related promotions, then they are pocketing it or getting cash players in there. Or blowing it on rec SNG players with the little promoted king of the felt.

And if they aren't upping guarantees on their own, the only way to get more events on the schedule, or get bigger prizepools to play for, is to get more entrants. Looking at that equation it'll never happen ...since there is no enticement for regs to play, and no $22 and a dream for fish/ rec players to go after.

All of which leaves me thinking that I remain correct that they have no intention of building themselves back up as a tournament room - unless they think the purported bodog network will bring such an infusion of players that it'll solve itself? That sounds like a pipe dream to me.

Cliffs: This MIGHT work for the cash room and increase traffic. But when I look at the tournament room... where's the beef? Improving existing structures is nice.. but at the end of the day we want more total dollars in prizepools amirite?

 

Originally Posted by Burying_Luck

There's a difference between using a HUD (which doesn't give you extra info just tracks it) and data mining (which is not allowed obv). I would be careful to not confuse these two things.

You're right about datamining being illegal but that's exactly what HUD does. I think a better term for what they are trying to really get at with their rule is "Data Collecting". I think that's what they are trying to stop honestly. They don't want people opening 100 tables and leaving them open just to collect the data so that a HUD can run analytics on the data. Data mining by definition from the Princeton.edu website is: data processing using sophisticated data search capabilities and statistical algorithms to discover patterns and correlations in large preexisting databases (your hud data base).

Really all HUD is is a piece of datamining software. It finds statistical patterns and in a large data set and displays that information for the end user. How that's fair is beyond me.

 

Originally Posted by jsagan77

You're right about datamining being illegal but that's exactly what HUD does. I think a better term for what they are trying to really get at with their rule is "Data Collecting". I think that's what they are trying to stop honestly. They don't want people opening 100 tables and leaving them open just to collect the data so that a HUD can run analytics on the data. Data mining by definition from the Princeton.edu website is: data processing using sophisticated data search capabilities and statistical algorithms to discover patterns and correlations in large preexisting databases (your hud data base).

Really all HUD is is a piece of datamining software. It finds statistical patterns and in a large data set and displays that information for the end user. How that's fair is beyond me.

Really I'm just playing devil's advocate. If you use it correctly it gives you information you already have and nothing more. How much you pay attention and look at HH's is up to you. It's not expensive and can be purchased by anyone so I have trouble sympathizing for people who swear against them. If they were to ban these programs tomorrow I could care less. It's hardly something I rely on and unless it's Sunday or something it's not even running on my computer.

 

Originally Posted by Infaulable

I disagree, I think Bodog is trying to carva a niche' and I think there are more recreational players at the low levels and micros that have been complaining about this for years than you realize. I think this will increase their player base and is bad news for the minority of us that were willing to make the investment in a hud. I chat at the tables quite a bit and the discussion of the unfairness of a hud comes up quite frequently. Most people think it is unfair and complain

Are these said chatters just placing blame on something because they suck or because they genuinely think some HUD using grinder is taking all the money at their low stake games?

 

Originally Posted by Nate Avenson

Bon,

I really think you're missing the point here.

In regards to "A", they aren't telling the fish anything. They are simply fostering an environment where fish will lose more slowly. They'll still lose (because we still have an edge) but our edge will be smaller, so they will lose at a slower rate which, in turn, will convert more one time depositors into regular depositors.

In regards to "B", they owe nothing to the winning grinder. They aren't saying "here's the trade-off, we're all good". They are telling affiliates "Don't bring us grinders, they're bad for our business model, and we aren't going to reward you for delivering them. If you want to bring us fish, we'll pay you for that, they are good for our business model." As for removing the TLB, they don't want grinders. Grinders win the TLB consistantly, so having it only encourages them to grind harder. Redeposit bonuses still exist, but they are targeted directly to net depositors so that they aren't going to net withdrawers, or worse, players withdrawing and redepositing specifically to get the bonus.

As for better structures, you asked for more chips in the $5k last week. It's there this week. And we talked today about improving the $100k structure. They've also added new satelites and adjusted starting times in direct response to our requests. They've made countless adjustments to nearly every aspect of the software based on our requests.

Agreed, Bodog has made some good changes. Not sure the db will be one of them but it's def improving.

Title says it all. I don't hear much about people playing on Bodog here on pocketfives. How much will this effect you if you play on Bodog or plan on it?

http://www.crushedpoker.com/bodog/

 

Originally Posted by naptime555

Title says it all. I don't hear much about people playing on Bodog here on pocketfives. How much will this effect you if you play on Bodog or plan on it?

http://www.crushedpoker.com/bodog/

repost- moving tom main thread discussing this

im all for banning huds, though i do sometimes use one, i find them to be an annoyance more than anything

Ban HUDS entirely! Personally, when I think about the concept of a computer tracking every move everyone at the table makes, it just seems unjust. I'm surprised all sites didn't attempt to ban these when they first started becoming popular.

Data Mining is is more about collecting information on players that you've never sat down with - collecting your own hand histories should be permitted - I'm not 100% certain, but 99.99% that FTP and stars explicitly state that data mining is an infringement of their TOS - they just don't enforce it....yet.

Both Stars and FTP have had discussions with OPR on how and what they can publish in terms of lobby results information, but results are surely a different discussion, since poker players are evaluated in terms of how much money they win. So while I understand the data mining ban, I don't get the ban on results information - FTP said that players used that information to harrass other players - but I suspect that is a minority.

I'm OK with banning HUD's and Data Mining - not the collecting of your own HH - but lobby results should be available.

Bodog has enough software issues as it is. Implementing anything else is just funny to me at this point...

HH I think help your game when you can review them. I think everyone should block HUDs. You don't see a screen pop up when you play live showing your odds do you?

 

Originally Posted by CalBandGreat

So many live fish are afraid of online poker because they hear that all the pros have these stats that track the hands that they play. That sounds very scary to someone just trying to have some fun playing in the evening after work. Saying that those fish can just get a HUD if they want is really naive, obv they can, but they are just playing for fun and figuring out how to use a HUD is not fun, especially for a 50 year old businessman who is not tech savy. A few years ago the rec players would usually lose when they played online, but at least they had a decent chance and now there are just so many good regs that there chances have decreased and a lot of businessmen who like poker don't even bother playing online. The pro's are the not the real customers of the site, the customers are the players who are likely to lose money over the long term, as obv without them there is no long term future for the game. The sites need to do everything possible to make them happy and allowing HUDS is not making any rec players happy and it is a reason for a lot of them not to play. Good regs who don't want to sites to ban HUD's are really being short sitted in their thinking. I'm surprised that the major sites have not done this yet.

lol randoms who decide to depo online dont even know what a HUD is - the biggest drawback for them is the sites possibly being rigged, and trying to get actual money online.

[QUOTE=bonflizubi;6108299]no more crashes of the software?

Specifically this and pretty much anything zubs said as I won't waste my time with the likes of you Mr. avenson..

HUDs should be banned. I'm tired of HUD-assisted grinders coming over the top in the $24s :-)

That being said, I don't think that other people using HUDs is ever gonna stop me from being profitable, even without a HUD. If I'm at a table long enough, I'm gonna usually get a pretty accurate feel for what's going on, and people that are "running without the ball" will eventually be looked up when the time is right.

 

Originally Posted by CalBandGreat

So many live fish are afraid of online poker because they hear that all the pros have these stats that track the hands that they play. That sounds very scary to someone just trying to have some fun playing in the evening after work. Saying that those fish can just get a HUD if they want is really naive, obv they can, but they are just playing for fun and figuring out how to use a HUD is not fun, especially for a 50 year old businessman who is not tech savy. A few years ago the rec players would usually lose when they played online, but at least they had a decent chance and now there are just so many good regs that there chances have decreased and a lot of businessmen who like poker don't even bother playing online. The pro's are the not the real customers of the site, the customers are the players who are likely to lose money over the long term, as obv without them there is no long term future for the game. The sites need to do everything possible to make them happy and allowing HUDS is not making any rec players happy and it is a reason for a lot of them not to play. Good regs who don't want to sites to ban HUD's are really being short sitted in their thinking. I'm surprised that the major sites have not done this yet.

very good post.

HEM is just a big PITA nowadays anyways.

winning and ranked players, prolly stakers too, better start stepping up quick to ensure the player pool is protected and happy. bout 3-4 years behind as it is.