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Busted Resteal late on tournament

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  1. pvigar pvigar is offline

    Curitiba
    Brazil

    Posts: 38
    Joined: Dec 10

    Jan 4th, 2011 (1/4/2011 2:10am)

    Hey guys, I just got knocked out on the daily 40K Guar on PS on the following hand:


    pokerstars Game #55317144658: Tournament #401010491, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXIII (1250/2500) - 2011/01/03 18:16:07 ET
    Table '401010491 379' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
    Seat 2: vmv23 (175548 in chips)
    Seat 3: TamaraKings (29735 in chips)
    Seat 4: chahdouda (102353 in chips)
    Seat 5: greenrizla (118115 in chips)
    Seat 6: pvigar (53568 in chips)
    Seat 7: BrüNiM (45411 in chips)
    Seat 8: Xamlo (16430 in chips)
    Seat 9: Juanin56 (98547 in chips)
    vmv23: posts the ante 310
    TamaraKings: posts the ante 310
    chahdouda: posts the ante 310
    greenrizla: posts the ante 310
    pvigar: posts the ante 310
    BrüNiM: posts the ante 310
    Xamlo: posts the ante 310
    Juanin56: posts the ante 310
    greenrizla: posts small blind 1250
    pvigar: posts big blind 2500
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to pvigar [7d Kh]
    BrüNiM: folds
    Xamlo: folds
    Juanin56: folds
    vmv23: folds
    TamaraKings: folds
    chahdouda: raises 5000 to 7500
    barbarouni is connected
    greenrizla: folds
    pvigar: raises 16250 to 23750
    chahdouda: raises 78293 to 102043 and is all-in
    pvigar: calls 29508 and is all-in
    Uncalled bet (48785) returned to chahdouda
    *** FLOP *** [9d 8d As]
    *** TURN *** [9d 8d As] [6s]
    *** RIVER *** [9d 8d As 6s] [Ks]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    pvigar: shows [7d Kh] (a pair of Kings)
    chahdouda: shows [Ac 8c] (two pair, Aces and Eights)
    chahdouda collected 110246 from pot
    pvigar finished the tournament in 364th place and received $42.90.
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 110246 | Rake 0
    Board [9d 8d As 6s Ks]
    Seat 2: vmv23 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 3: TamaraKings folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 4: chahdouda (button) showed [Ac 8c] and won (110246) with two pair, Aces and Eights
    Seat 5: greenrizla (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 6: pvigar (big blind) showed [7d Kh] and lost with a pair of Kings
    Seat 7: BrüNiM folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 8: Xamlo folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 9: Juanin56 folded before Flop (didn't bet)


    I was kinda short stacked (21 bbs) and I was waiting for a spot to resteal the villain. He was LAG (VP 30 / PR 18 I guess), he's got a decent stack and was playing decently. My image on the table was pretty conservative, I didn't play much hands and went to 0 showdowns on that table... I don't know if the move I made was a little bit strange, I don't know if I should've moved all in directly or put a smaller reraise so I could fold if he 4-bet... It was incredibly odd, I never thought he would 4-bet me with A8...

    What did I do wrong? I checked his stats online and he wasn't a profitable player, though he was playing pretty decently... What information do you guys need before going for that kind of move? Or you think it's like suicide? Any suggestions?

    Just explaining, I called him because if I didn't I would be really short stacked, but If I won, I would go to 115K what would be a comfortable stack and it would be much more difficult for me to reach that stack if I folded the hand (assuming that I'm behind like 30/70 max)
  2. Bake Me A Bake Me A is offline

    Evansville, IN
    United States

    Posts: 222
    Joined: Dec 10

    Jan 4th, 2011 (1/4/2011 2:40am) in reply to pvigar

    Anytime you are still within the top 500 players of a $10 field the players for the most part probably arent going to give much thought to table image. That being said, you 3bet is so big that it honestly looks like a resteal. And unless you are trying to get into some sort of over thinking leveling war where he would think that you would think you are making your large 3bet look like a resteal I would say keep it around 17.2k. I would rather just see a fold, and wait for a better spot. You have to wait through the small blind would still have a great stack for stealing and plenty of fold equity preflop. Just a general rule for me is just not to steal very often at this stage in the tournament in this situation given the hand and the player being a losing player.

    His view on this tournament is more than likely the same as many other losing players. One of which I need chips fast..I think a tighter preflop style would be more efficient in these situations. You have to be right at an average stack and you arent going to win the tournament with 400 players left by making bad 3bets. Even with 13-15bb left you still have fold equity and give yourself an opportunity to double up with a good preflop holding on a shove. More than likely going to find a better spot or holding before you are in this situation anyways. gl

    I would say your 3bet isnt awful, but your call is suicide.
  3. okse54 okse54 is offline

    New York, NY
    United States

    Posts: 3,692
    Joined: Nov 07

    Jan 4th, 2011 (1/4/2011 2:52am) in reply to Bake Me A

    so the spot in general looks like a good spot for a resteal, a LAG player opening on the button, we have a pretty good resteal stack, and our image is good.

    K7o isnt the greatest of resteal hands but the probably still good enough

    i agree with bake me about the bet size, either shove and put max pressure or make a smallish reraise. whichever you think will get you the higher FE vs this particular player. id probably just shove.

    in the end sometimes you resteal against a real hand, if his overall PR is 18 his PR when folded to him on the button is probably like 30 or higher. he happened to have had a hand towards the top of his range, and we were still in solid shape. he made the right call.

    dont get to hung up over it, the shove is probably profitable, yes folding would have been fine also but it good to be able to recognize spots where you can make a move
     
  4. CayneB CayneB is offline

    Littleton, CO
    United States

    Posts: 448
    Joined: Feb 07

    Jan 4th, 2011 (1/4/2011 3:14am) in reply to okse54

    Complete suicide imo.

    The 3bet size seems ridiculous and just screams as a bluff/steal... to me. It's not just way too big, but it's also 45% of your entire stack?! I so don't understand these weird preflop bet sizes. To me, it's flat, fold, or shove with your stack... only. And any different just seems odd. If I'm in villain's shoes I just see the 3bet as a donk move and would NOT believe you for any actual hand. Impressed by his A8 play here myself. One has to to tell a story with their play, and (to me) this preflop story says 'I don't know what I'm doing... and I hope everyone folds.'

    Not to take any issue with the idea, as I really like restealing, especially given your stack and your read on this opener (and his actual holding.) It's just that in this spot, I believe a resteal would require a shove, and any other line looks funny. ... imo.
  5. drnobody1 drnobody1 is offline

    Eemnes
    Netherlands

    Posts: 78
    Joined: Aug 10

    Jan 4th, 2011 (1/4/2011 9:44am) in reply to CayneB

    1 If you plan on alling his shove you should have shoved your self.
    2 If you resteal make sure you know your opponend is capable of folding!!!! because a lot of players are not.(dont bluff a calling station)
  6. pvigar pvigar is offline

    Curitiba
    Brazil

    Posts: 38
    Joined: Dec 10

    Jan 4th, 2011 (1/4/2011 1:08pm) in reply to drnobody1

    Ok, thanks for the feedback guys. I'm aware that the raise was really screaming like a bluff but the message was sent: that I've put half my stack on the table and I would not fold if he shoved.

    But, one thing's not clear for me: the objective of the move was to make my opponent fold. So, theory says that I should put on the table the minimum required to generate the fold, as many players today find it easier to call pre-flop shoves than anything else. That was the motivation of my "fat" 3-bet, not putting my entire stack and sending the message that I was commited to the pot, and I think I made it pretty clear.

    I know that I may be overthinking here as I think he would call a shove and reraise all in any bet that I throw in there...

    One thing BakeMeA: why the call is so terrible? I had odds of 2.75 to 1 and 35% of chance to win, if I won I'd go to 115K and if I didn't call, I would have to win at least 2 all in situations, what is statistically more improbable than winning one 35-65.
    Thread Starter
  7. TKO121 TKO121 is offline

    Baltimore, MD
    United States

    Posts: 102
    Joined: Nov 10

    Jan 4th, 2011 (1/4/2011 1:29pm) in reply to pvigar

    I think you had the right idea if your opponent is LAG, but you have a very awkward chip stack to attempt a resteal from the SB. You can see just by the way you got into the spot. You had to make an awkward size raise and when he 4bet you all in you had no choice but to call. I like the sizing of your reraise but you really need a bigger stack to accomplish it. like i said with 21BB its an awkward spot. You really want to have a stack of around 15BB and just shove pre.
     
  8. luckierno7 luckierno7 is offline

    Posts: 723
    Joined: Dec 09

    Jan 4th, 2011 (1/4/2011 10:24pm) in reply to TKO121

    not the best resteal, but not too bad either
    slightly better hand, slightly lower stack- even better spot
    118 
  9. DumbFishead DumbFishead is offline

    Las Vegas, NV
    United States

    Posts: 4
    Joined: Nov 10

    Jan 4th, 2011 (1/4/2011 11:46pm) in reply to pvigar

     
    Originally Posted by pvigar View Post

    One thing BakeMeA: why the call is so terrible? I had odds of 2.75 to 1 and 35% of chance to win,.

    This is just fundamentally wrong. You may have had 35% equity THIS HAND, but what do you have vs a range? Dont look at it as this hand, always apply some sort of range BEFORE you make your move (including a propensity to fold, or FE %) and decide if you have a reasonable success rate.

    all in all I really think this was total spewage without a better knowledge of his fold to resteal %. And even if he is 100% on previous occasions folding to resteal your resteal was too much.

    generally speaking you are also in a reship stack range where most of your 3 bets should really be a shove. Even if it's a bad resteal you maximize your FE chances.
  10. pvigar pvigar is offline

    Curitiba
    Brazil

    Posts: 38
    Joined: Dec 10

    Jan 5th, 2011 (1/5/2011 2:38am) in reply to DumbFishead

    I obviously put him in a range, and the most times I will be behind with live cards, the second is a dominated hand and the third is AA/KK. So most times I would have 35% and the other ones I get 30% max.
    Thread Starter
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