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Call because of pot odds or fold?

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  1. Easy Duzit Easy Duzit is offline

    CA
    United States

    Posts: 91
    Joined: May 08

    Dec 17th, 2008 (12/17/2008 2:39am)

    Raiser has been in a few pots recently and had check reraised all in on the flop a few hands earlier after raising pre.

    pokerstars Game #22993711891: Tournament #127000883, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level X (300/600) - 2008/12/17 3:29:59 ET
    Table '127000883 62' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
    Seat 1: Sin4567 (5162 in chips)
    Seat 2: pseudo shark (11547 in chips)
    Seat 3: brutus141 (5123 in chips)
    Seat 4: elmoslady (25982 in chips)
    Seat 5: randyraybbk (33575 in chips)
    Seat 6: RyanWalker21 (30286 in chips)
    Seat 7: MasterDwnUnd (8375 in chips)
    Seat 8: Ez Duzit99 (13525 in chips)
    Seat 9: dgm26 (4275 in chips)
    Sin4567: posts the ante 50
    pseudo shark: posts the ante 50
    brutus141: posts the ante 50
    elmoslady: posts the ante 50
    randyraybbk: posts the ante 50
    RyanWalker21: posts the ante 50
    MasterDwnUnd: posts the ante 50
    Ez Duzit99: posts the ante 50
    dgm26: posts the ante 50
    MasterDwnUnd: posts small blind 300
    Ez Duzit99: posts big blind 600
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Ez Duzit99 [9c Qh]
    dgm26: folds
    Sin4567: folds
    pseudo shark: folds
    brutus141: folds
    elmoslady: folds
    randyraybbk: raises 1200 to 1800
    RyanWalker21: folds
    MasterDwnUnd: calls 1500
    Ez Duzit99: Call or fold????
  2. silverscull silverscull is offline

    Virginia Beach, VA
    United States

    Posts: 163
    Joined: Sep 08

    Dec 17th, 2008 (12/17/2008 5:49am) in reply to Easy Duzit

    Hi Easy: The pot is giving you a little over 4:1 for your 900-chip call. Pot odds sez make the call. Q9o ain't a great hand, but it's not totally hopeless. It's hands like this that are good enough to call in these: a small pair to make a set, an Ace-rag-suited, a suited connector. For me, Q9 is one of those hands that, for some unexplained reason, takes down big multiway pots. You may have to fold it on most flops, but when you flop Q 9 2 rainbow and Randy's got AQs or J T 8 vs his JJ, you can get a lot of his chips.

    While pot odds might warrant a call on any hand in this situation, so-called "Big Blind Specials" like 82o just get you into trouble if you just get a tiny piece of the flop. I'd rather call with hands that can flop a set, straight, or flush.

    Hope it worked out for you.
  3. Son of 51 LIMA Son of 51 LIMA is offline

    CT
    United States

    Posts: 237
    Joined: Feb 07

    Dec 17th, 2008 (12/17/2008 10:09am) in reply to Easy Duzit

    Flat calling here is an excellent way to spew chips.

    How can you really turn calling here into a +EV play? Let's look at the possible arguments that someone can use to justify a play like this...

    1.) "The guy has been getting involved in a number of pots and I was in position, so I decided to take a flop and maybe outplay him" - You are out of position, so you can't use this argument

    2.) "I was so deep stacked compared to the blinds, that I thought the implied odds to hitting a miracle flop made the call justified" - You only have about 23 BB's, definately not deep stacked.

    3.) "I had him so outchipped that I could put a lot of pressure on him and steal it away" - He has you outchipped almost 3 to 1

    4.) 'He is a super tight rock, he'll fold almost everytime unless he hits perfect" - Your post indicates otherwise.

    So the only argument that you have to call is that you hope to flop two pair or a set because for some cosmic reason it seems to win a lot of pots.

    I vote for a fold. Abuse the other stack in position.

    Edit: One more thing, about the pot odds. Yes, you are getting 4:1 on the call, however, you are not calling an all-in. You are only going to get 3 cards and if you don't hit, you know he'll continuation bet and you'll be hard pressed to fold. Saying that you are getting 4:1 (with the idea that your hand is at least that good against any hand he'll show down) is misleading, because in most cases this hand will not make it to showdown. You'll either hit a flop that you are willing to play for your whole stack, or you'll fold.
  4. GeorgeMorris GeorgeMorris is offline

    Pennock, MN
    United States

    Posts: 660
    Joined: Nov 08

    Dec 17th, 2008 (12/17/2008 12:22pm) in reply to Son of 51 LIMA

    And we have a winning response broken down in numbers for you. If this guy is getting involved in way too many pots 3-bet if you want him to lay the hand down, ship it on him to get him to lay off your blind. I vote a fold instead of a shove, but I am not as aggressive as almost all successful online guys.
  5. hushpuckena hushpuckena is offline

    Natchez, MS
    United States

    Posts: 2,005
    Joined: Feb 08

    Dec 17th, 2008 (12/17/2008 4:58pm) in reply to Easy Duzit

    I throw this away-the flat-call is worrisome, and it makes it less likely that you can pick up the pot by coming over the top.
  6. Easy Duzit Easy Duzit is offline

    CA
    United States

    Posts: 91
    Joined: May 08

    Dec 17th, 2008 (12/17/2008 5:12pm) in reply to hushpuckena

    Pot odds are 4-1 pre, and implied odds are also there if I flop big. Post flop either I fold or they are all going in, so post flop is a very easy decision. I'd be looking for a big flop here, not something like 1 pair. I'm looking at risk vs reward. This isn't a complete garbage hand like 83 suited, and I'd be looking for a str8 draw or flopped str8, or 2 pair or 3 of a kind. Anything else, I can get away from.

    I'll post what happened a bit later, but I'd like a few more opinions since I'm still not sure if folding there is correct. I'd really like to get a handle on this spot because this situation comes up often enough, and folding could be to nitty, but calling could be a leak. Still not sure which. If it was a larger raise, it would be an easier fold.

    Easy
    Thread Starter
  7. rivverkiller rivverkiller is offline

    White Rock
    Canada

    Posts: 6,352
    Joined: Feb 06

    Dec 18th, 2008 (12/18/2008 6:32pm) in reply to Easy Duzit

    You only have 20ish bb's and you have a hand that flops poorly especially out've position. Are you telling me that you're going to be able to get away from a 923 or q23 flop that easily? You can't really bet/fold those flops, and if you're just gonna check/fold then you're spewing chips like crazy. You can check/raise but then you're doing exactly the opposite of what your plan was preflop. I will shove here against certain players but fold against most. Calling is certainly out've the question.
     
  8. I Spew Chips I Spew Chips is offline

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    Dec 18th, 2008 (12/18/2008 6:41pm) in reply to rivverkiller

    I think stack size here is more important than your odds to call. With a little over 20 bbs its not really a hand you want to get involved with oop at this stage.
     
  9. rivverkiller rivverkiller is offline

    White Rock
    Canada

    Posts: 6,352
    Joined: Feb 06

    Dec 18th, 2008 (12/18/2008 7:57pm) in reply to I Spew Chips

    Agreed, pot odds are overrated in general. More importantly are the implied odds given with speculative hands. With 20 bb's effective, your implied odds just aren't there.
     
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