Full Tilt Poker Game #29465948082: $21,000 Guarantee (Rebuy) (228881579), Table 103 - 1400/2800 Ante 350 - No Limit Hold'em - 01:22:44 ET - 2011/03/30
Seat 1: meigas (77,621)
Seat 2: TPAULO (174,003)
Seat 3: chrispy2005 (87,630)
Seat 4: rhinodash (92,481)
Seat 5: raketonosets (96,633)
Seat 6: hotasyan (46,000)
Seat 7: Bleeaauuhh (90,525)
Seat 8: CJA408 (39,920)
Seat 9: afisha-ua (42,175)
meigas antes 350
TPAULO antes 350
chrispy2005 antes 350
rhinodash antes 350
raketonosets antes 350
hotasyan antes 350
Bleeaauuhh antes 350
CJA408 antes 350
afisha-ua antes 350
rhinodash posts the small blind of 1,400
raketonosets posts the big blind of 2,800
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to rhinodash [Qh Qc]
hotasyan folds
Bleeaauuhh folds
CJA408 calls 2,800
afisha-ua has 15 seconds left to act
afisha-ua folds
meigas folds
TPAULO folds
chrispy2005 has 15 seconds left to act
chrispy2005 raises to 8,400
rhinodash has 15 seconds left to act
rhinodash has requested TIME
rhinodash

So about 30BBs deep,villian is a good player p5er... Basically when he full 3xs over the short stack limp I dont really think he is light very often. If we 3b here and he 4b jams i think its safe to say his range is JJ+AK as I have no history of getting out of line with him. We do probably pick up the pot some of the time if he folds the bottom of his range here and doesnt flat with it. If he flats our 3b we get put in alot of tough spots postflop. I just feel like 3b and reopening the betting oop to a good player in a spot where we feel his range is pretty strong lets him own us too often as our hand is probably mostly face up, if he flats I still dont like playing this hand oop postflop.

The problem is I dont like playing this hand postflop oop after we flat either, I suppose if we decide to flat my preferable line is c/r/get it in dry low boards postflop and either b/f or c/f A or K high flops. Still I think this is a spot that can get us into a lot of trouble no matter what preflop line we take with these stacks and villian being a good player and having position.

Basically I think 3b with stack sizes lets the villian play his hand correctly against us most of the time which is bad, whereas flatting puts us in tough post flop situations and also lets us get owned some of the time. I guess I could just jam but with 30BBish eff seems a little weak as well. Just dont like the spot a whole lot cause we win small pots fairly regularly but get stacked most of the rest of the time. Looking for thoughts about what line most like here, im sure it will be the 3b/c 4b jam that i ended up taking. Probably also over analyzing this spot but I think its probably tougher than alot of those who will just say 3b/get it in all day long think...

I think your options here are unfortunately limited. While I understand many people take into account bb left I think m score is of more value. With your m score just above 12 you have about 100 hands before you blind out of money which kinda means QQ may be the best hand you get dealt pre flop but this may not the best spot you have with the remaining hands you have left. Due to his being what you say to be a solid player he is more than likely not raising with just air, but due to his being on the button it is likely he is playing a wider range than he normally would as he is in position possibly to a loose limper (i think) who he can get to call pre flop raise and fold most flops. This to me could mean that he could be as light as 77, I would think stronger hands what get a slightly bigger raise to get his opponent with a smaller stack to commit so perhaps he would raise the limper to 25% of limper's stack if he had say KK or AA which are your real worries here. AK, AQ and AJ are all concerns here as well as being in position he gets to play the hand well and correctly from the button. However if he is what you say solid I think you can 3b him here pretty easily and still be able to fold if he shoves your bet or get away from it should he flat and flop be AKx if thats your read. I also don't think that shoving with QQ in that spot is terrible especially given that his likely holding should be a pair like 88 or AJ or AK. I would definitely think KK would raise more preflop from the button and AA is possible but I think if you shove with your QQ there your likely to be called by hands like 88 or 1010 more often then you will see your opponent flip up AA. To conclude I think 3b is your best option to either take it to around 20k or 22k or to shove, And that would depend entirely on how you assess your button opponent. On a side note the limper is scary in my opinion but you gave no information on him and he had a shorter stack so I am guessing he is loose player with little to worry about like a limping AA? But I am not sure as I don't have info on him other than limp and stack size.

Tough spot. Since this is the 3r with a lot of weak players that limp a wide range (everything?), I actually think his 3x raise is pretty standard. In fact, with a 30bb stack on the button, I really like raising here pretty wide since the limper frequently folds and even if limper doesn't fold, you have position and can usually take the pot with a c-bet. So I don't necessarily see the 3x raise as strength.

I hate flatting here. If you flat, there's a good chance the limper comes along and you're playing QQ OOP in a 3-way pot. I think there's a lot of scary boards in this situation and being OOP is going to lead to folding pretty often or having to make tough decisions. Since I'm assigning a fairly wide range to the button, putting yourself into this spot seems -EV in the long-run.

In my opinion, this is a 3-bet/call or jam spot. A solid reg is never calling a jam without TT/JJ+,AK. I think you lose value by jamming. I like a small 3-bet to 16-18k with the intent of calling a jam for the following reasons:
1) I think villain could be fairly wide and you can take the pot often enough to make this profitable
2) Even if villain is at the top of his range and 4-bets, QQ has enough equity against JJ+,AK to make this play +EV, even if it's marginal
3) IP villain could flat wider than his 4-bet range and you can obtain some value from mid-pairs and draws and maybe from top pair T/J high boards.

If villain flats the 3-bet, there will be about 45k in the pot. Your stack is in good enough shape that you could c-bet 20k and get away from the hand if a A or K hits the flop.

I don't like this line or the spot it puts you in if villain flats the 3-bet, but I think it's the best way to get value with this hand.

Edit: just saw your updated post. I stand by what I said though. Please edit out results, I think you can still get more feedback on this spot and the results will skew it.

Ya I basically agree with everything you are saying tyson, I think you summed up better what I was trying to say. Its not that I think his range is super strong from the open its more that when we do 3b it lets him play whatever part of his range he has correctly which is a fundamental theorum of poker error. But ya your reasons why this is a 3b/call are basically what I decided when I made the decision. I just thought it was a trickier spot than it appeared on the surface and wanted to explore all possible lines to max our value and reduce our risk, but after sleeping on it and reading some responses Im convinced flatting is pretty much out of the question. I guess its between a 3b/c and jam and as you say of the two 3b/c is definitely preferable for the reasons you laid out.

edit: spelling

 

Originally Posted by alewine09

1st great post i like the way u think. secondly im 3 betting going broke here err time... also its obv good to analyze but over analyzing things can be wicked just have all the confidence in the world in your play. gl man

how deep is this? i dont do tilt..

I dunno I think like 150 left so not really too deep yet...

To make a quick clarification I didn't mean to insta fold to a 4b jam from button opponent only if you read him for a hand like AA KK or AK as with your stack and 150 players left you could wait for a better spot as per my opening two sentences sorry for confusion.