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  1. Wheres My Kiss Wheres My Kiss is offline

    Pittsburgh, PA
    United States

    Posts: 53
    Joined: Mar 11

    Jul 16th, 2012 (7/16/2012 7:37pm)

    I was playing in a $50 dollar donkament at my local Casino today and I believe I played this hand properly against this guy, although it didn't work out. I do understand before people post that it is somewhat high variance, but I still like it. What do you guys think.

    I was in the Hi Jack with AJo and 15k starting stack (blinds 100.200.25) I make it 725 guy on the button flats me and so do two other people. (gotta love donkaments) Anyways, the flop comes A 4 7 two clubs. First two players check, and I think what would be the best play here. The guy on the button seemed to love betting flops where I believe hit hit his aces. This was the reason for my play. I check and he leads for 2700 (3kish in pot) first two guys fold, and I just flat. My reasoning behind this is because of the fact that I think I am ahead of most of his Ax ranges, and I would like to keep those ranges in. I take AK out because I believe he 3 bets me pre with it.
    My plan is to check raise all in turn to most cards. Turn in another 7 and I check again. He bets out for 3.6k and I really believe that I am ahead of most of his range, so I jam. He calls with AQ and I brick river. Btw forgot to mention in post he had 11.5k to start hand.

    Like I said previously, I do understand that this is a high variance play and truthfully if I was playing online I would of definitely mucked on the turn, but most of these guys at the Casino don't understand hand ranges, and so on.


    Thoughts are welcomed folks.
  2. bazingaking bazingaking is offline

    United Kingdom

    Posts: 337
    Joined: Apr 11

    Jul 16th, 2012 (7/16/2012 8:04pm) in reply to Wheres My Kiss

    1. Why do you open so large? 450 or 500 should be fine rather than 725.

    2. Bet the flop. You can't check here IMO because button will check behind a lot of the time when he has air and then you are allowing all players to draw to the club flush draw or straight draws. Bet to make draws pay, and bet to work out where you are in the hand.

    If button raises your bet, then you know you are probably beat. Betting just helps define the strength of your opponent's hand depending upon whether he raises = probably has a good made hand (two pair, set etc.), depending upon tendencies could be a better hand than yours, or if he flats = weak made hand, ie a pair, or a draw, ie. the club flush draw (or he's trapping - but that is less likely).

    3. On the turn = First: When he bets on both streets, you have to give the villain a decent hand. Your check-jam will be called, so if you check-jam, you have to think that you are ahead. You have top pair, but villain has bet twice. You should probably give up.

    Second: His stack is 8k, the pot is 6k. He bets 3.6k. This leaves villain with 4.4k behind and the pot is now 9.6k. If you jam, he will have great odds to call and is too pot committed to fold. Therefore check-jamming cannot be used as a bluff here to force him to fold his better hands, and most of the hands in the range we can put him on are now better than us, so check-jamming really shouldn't be an option here.

    If villain did have say A9 or an Ace with a lower kicker, he could probably find a fold against your check-jam because his hand isn't actually that strong, even with the good pot odds. I think check-jamming just forces his good hands to call, and some of his worse hands to fold which is not a good play on out part. If you think his range is weighted towards the lower kickers, and hands we beat, then check-call every street rather than check-jam.

    4. However, I wouldn't have put villain on AQ or AK, but I would have been more likely to say that he had two pair, a set/ full house by the turn. Aces with lower kickers are in his range, but I don't think they would play so aggressively on flop and turn.

    I think you did get a bit unlucky here, because he should probably have 3-bet preflop with AQ. By calling pre-flop, we don't really suspect AQ post-flop. Your read on his play seems to have been pretty good, and if you think that villain would have called your turn check-jam with AT or A9, then you have an argument. However, hands like A6,A5 etc. (and I think A8,A9, and even AT) with two overcards on the board could easily find a fold. The number of AT hands - the hands we beat - is much smaller than the hands we lose to (two pair, sets) in his check-jam calling range and therefore I think the check-jam is the wrong play.

    I'd fold the turn for the reasons above and also because villain is so obviously pot committed that he probably has us beat.
  3. Wheres My Kiss Wheres My Kiss is offline

    Pittsburgh, PA
    United States

    Posts: 53
    Joined: Mar 11

    Jul 16th, 2012 (7/16/2012 8:29pm) in reply to bazingaking

    Thanks Bazing for the comment. I always like hearing your analysis because you give full descriptions on the situation. I will attempt to answer these the best way I can.

    First of all the reason why I am not 2.2-2.5 pre is due to the fact that I would have likely gotten 6 callers, honestly. These players have no idea about stack sizes and opening ranges at the Casino. This AJo was the second hand I opened in about 30 mins, and still got 3 callers.

    The reason why I went with this type of play was due to the fact of a couple different things. I saw this guy raising quite a bit on Ace high boards and had been rather active. In most normal situations against a solid player I def give up turn after two barrels. The thing about your response is this imo, I have played a lot in micro buy ins over the times and have been able to kind of level with bad players for the most part. Against a good player you would be able to realize that they are committed to the hand and that you are only going to get called by worse, but I just think that there is def more weaker parts of his range in this situation then the higher part.

    I just couldn't give this guy credit for having any real plan of attack in this situation because he was making 90% flop bet. Just seems like the situation when you play fish and they don't realize the texture of the board and just say "hey, I got a pair of aces, lets go with it" This was my main reason for doing what I did.

    I do like your idea on leading the turn though, I thought about that once I was done with the hand on what I could have done differently to change the outcome. I think if I bet flop I can control the pot a lot better and also define his range a bit more. I could of seen myself make it like 1125 on the flop as a type of blocker bet that if he raises to 3-3.5k I just call that bet, then check turn to fold to another bet because at that point I don't see myself beating very much.

    At the end of all of this though I am still 50.50 on how I played it. Def annoying that he bet 90% flop which handcuffs me a ton, but I still see him showing down worse.

    I would kind of like to here some more peoples opinions on this because I think this was an interesting situation.
    Thread Starter
  4. blueboy44 blueboy44 is offline

    Laurel, DE
    United States

    Posts: 203
    Joined: Dec 10

    Jul 17th, 2012 (7/17/2012 1:02am) in reply to Wheres My Kiss

    as far as ur reasoning for changing ur opening sizing is bad thinking. in live tourney's like this u must and have to use proper opening sizes because of the hand like u described. let's say u opened for $400 and got the same amount of callers (or more) the pot would be $1525. flop is the same so u check vill bets 1300 and u flat 1300 so the pot is $4125. after the turn the pot is a lil higher than it was on the flop when u didn't use sizing. so the turn comes and u check and vill bet the same $3600 would that help ur decision on jamming considering the 2 x he bet at u? or do u still jam here? let s say u fold the turn after vill bet. using sizing would of saved u some precious chips. i play in these tourney a lot so i know why u took the line u did. however if a live player that seems a lil active is betting at me hard and i have AJ in your spot i'm almost always folding. w/out a flush or str8 draw i'm thinking he has 2 pair on the turn. imo
    Edited By: blueboy44 Jul 17th, 2012 at 01:03 AM
  5. Bball23 Bball23 is online now

    Posts: 237
    Joined: Nov 11

    Jul 17th, 2012 (7/17/2012 3:00am) in reply to blueboy44

    I hate the check raise on the turn. Pretty much turning your hand into a bluff. Just call and re-evaluate on the river.
  6. F1sherman F1sherman is offline

    Posts: 36
    Joined: Jan 09

    Jul 17th, 2012 (7/17/2012 4:34am) in reply to Bball23

    Definitely raise smaller pre and lead the flop and possibly the turn if you don't get raised. Fold to a raise on either street here unless you have a specific read on the villian.
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