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Is this check raise really THAT bad?

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  1. larrygold larrygold is offline

    Farmingville, NY
    United States

    Posts: 55
    Joined: Jun 07

    Dec 3rd, 2007 (12/3/2007 10:39am)

    There are 30 players left...IMO there are two standard lines to take here...shove pre flop or shove the flop when checked to me..neither which i did..I felt I was still good on this flop but Oz bet hard EVERYTIME it was checked to him in the prior two orbits...Is it that bad to play for the check raise here since I believe he's going to bet here 75%+ of the time...??

    pokerstars Game #13575545510: Tournament #68180051, $50+$5 Hold'em No Limit - Level XVI (2000/4000) - 2007/12/01 - 01:44:17 (ET)
    Table '68180051 126' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
    Seat 1: ifkmad (14738 in chips)
    Seat 2: larrygold (61931 in chips)
    Seat 3: Bad Beat Oz (119636 in chips)
    Seat 5: eddie24b (96836 in chips)
    Seat 6: BUDTIME (133841 in chips)
    Seat 7: takeudown (177312 in chips)
    Seat 8: playsmooth (66636 in chips)
    Seat 9: misssafety (153224 in chips)
    ifkmad: posts the ante 400
    larrygold: posts the ante 400
    Bad Beat Oz: posts the ante 400
    eddie24b: posts the ante 400
    BUDTIME: posts the ante 400
    takeudown: posts the ante 400
    playsmooth: posts the ante 400
    misssafety: posts the ante 400
    eddie24b: posts small blind 2000
    BUDTIME: posts big blind 4000
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to larrygold [8d 8c]
    takeudown: folds
    playsmooth: folds
    misssafety: folds
    ifkmad: folds
    larrygold: raises 12000 to 16000
    Bad Beat Oz: calls 16000
    eddie24b: folds
    BUDTIME: calls 12000
    *** FLOP *** [5h Qs 3h]
    BUDTIME: checks
    larrygold: checks
    Bad Beat Oz: bets 16000
    BUDTIME: folds
    larrygold: raises 29531 to 45531 and is all-in
     
  2. vastu vastu is offline

    Far Rockaway, NY
    United States

    Posts: 133
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    Dec 3rd, 2007 (12/3/2007 11:37am) in reply to larrygold

    shove or fold preflop
  3. tNaCarN tNaCarN is offline

    Melbourne
    Australia

    Posts: 792
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    Dec 3rd, 2007 (12/3/2007 11:40am) in reply to larrygold

    If he had Q3+ QJ here i'd spew.
  4. Sane Man Sane Man is offline

    Orwigsburg, PA
    United States

    Posts: 152
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    Dec 3rd, 2007 (12/3/2007 11:41am) in reply to larrygold

    Make your preflop raise smaller or just put it all in.
  5. larrygold larrygold is offline

    Farmingville, NY
    United States

    Posts: 55
    Joined: Jun 07

    Dec 3rd, 2007 (12/3/2007 12:41pm) in reply to Sane Man

    the preflop action is not what i want to discuss here...as played what do you think the villians calling range is here...atc? i know shoving is the abc play either pre or post flop..lets look at this hand as it was played..
     
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  6. AMelione AMelione is offline

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    Joined: Feb 07

    Dec 3rd, 2007 (12/3/2007 12:48pm) in reply to larrygold

    lol well you woudlnt' be in this position if you played right preflop. you have pretty much NO FE with your check/shove, he has to call you with anything, i would ship flop as played, but shit preflop or fold.

    edit: and you shoudl be raising 10,000 preflop NOT 16K, if your going to raise and not push, but this shoudl be a push all day with an M less then 10
  7. Ozzie Ozzie is offline

    Joliet, IL
    United States

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    Dec 3rd, 2007 (12/3/2007 3:00pm) in reply to larrygold

    i hate your line... youre almost certainly getting called now and your hand is very vulnerable, if youre even leading.
  8. larrygold larrygold is offline

    Farmingville, NY
    United States

    Posts: 55
    Joined: Jun 07

    Dec 3rd, 2007 (12/3/2007 3:37pm) in reply to Ozzie

    it's not standard ABC but the question is whether or not its terribily spewy given that I know he going to bet a hand that's behind..If I strongly believe I'm a 70/30ish favorite here...is it worth playing for an extra 45K rather than taking it down on the flop when I know an all in is going to win the the ~50k pot..playing for stacks triples me up as opposed to doubling me....

    i think we all agree i have no FE here but is the value of my hand really only based on FE on this flop..Im ahead so often...why not get him pot committed for another 45K?

    Personally I dont think its so bad if I know he's going to bet..its tragic if he checks behind because then both villians get a free card and my 8s are more vulnerable..

    for the record..he called with AJ and got there..thus the question becomes, is this too greedy a line to take??
     
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  9. Big Swing Big Swing is offline

    South Africa

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    Dec 3rd, 2007 (12/3/2007 3:47pm) in reply to larrygold

    Yuck at this whole hand
  10. Ally Ally is offline

    Minneapolis, MN
    United States

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    Dec 3rd, 2007 (12/3/2007 4:10pm) in reply to larrygold

    Like others, not sure if I like how this hand was played preflop, but you're asking about post flop comments...

    The problem is that by checking the flop and planning to check/raise, you're really pricing in your villain to call with almost any two cards. You definitely put him in a bad spot here if he doesn't have the Q, but he may still call with two overs since there will just be so much $$$ in the middle.

    This is a very tough spot, but I think it would have been a much better play to lead the flop and fold to his shove. He can't shove with air because of the BB behind.

    Either way, a very sticky hand and a very difficult spot. Thus, that's why a preflop shove here is not a terrible play.
  11. banjos banjos is offline

    New Rochelle, NY
    United States

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    Dec 3rd, 2007 (12/3/2007 4:12pm) in reply to Ally

    u couldnt of played the hand worse on any level that u did.
  12. FishOnTilt FishOnTilt is offline

    Sioux City, IA
    United States

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    Dec 3rd, 2007 (12/3/2007 4:41pm) in reply to banjos

    no comment.
     
  13. iLLNuGWichee iLLNuGWichee is offline

    Avon, IN
    United States

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    Dec 3rd, 2007 (12/3/2007 5:28pm) in reply to larrygold

    If you want to play it like you did, you need to create fold equity. The way you played it, you raiseed 4x preflop(puke). Then on the flop there is ~57200 chips. You check , villain bets 16k into 57.2k, then you raise to 45k to go. So that's 29k for him to call, to win a ~102,000 chips. You're giving him over 3:1 on the flop call here. So he can call you with a pretty wide range to be the right call...flush draw, any pair basically.

    Now, if you want to creat fold equity. You should raise to ~10,000. so then the pot will only be ~39,000 on the flop as opposed to ~57,200. This way if you wanted to check/raise(not saying it's the most optimal play here, but go with ur read) the villain will probably only bet ~10,000 into 39,000. Now the pot is 49,000. now you can ship in ~61,000 of your chips, making it ~51,000 for him to call a ~110,000 pot. Now only giving him just over 2:1 instead of just over 3:1.
     
  14. wny2nyc47 wny2nyc47 is offline

    Princeton, NJ
    United States

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    Dec 3rd, 2007 (12/3/2007 5:40pm) in reply to larrygold

    If he's betting 75% of the time, he's calling 100% of the time - or folding 0% of the time, if you prefer - having to call 14K with 115K in the pot and 87K behind.
  15. wny2nyc47 wny2nyc47 is offline

    Princeton, NJ
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    Dec 3rd, 2007 (12/3/2007 5:45pm) in reply to iLLNuGWichee

    ^^more effort than I was willing to put into it. Well done /thread
  16. amak316 amak316 is offline

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    Dec 3rd, 2007 (12/3/2007 6:09pm) in reply to wny2nyc47

    whys everyone ripping his play. Preflop 4x is bad, nothing else in this hand is bad. He induced a bluff by one of the flat callers and jammed with the best hand.. why do you need fold equity if you have the opponents range crushed pretty hard as it appears to be 100% of his calling range.

    check raise shoving is alot better than jamming the flop. If you jam the flop people will only call you with hands that beat you and your shove would be greater than potsized. I think postflop this is my line more often than not with 88. preflop 2.5-3x would be better imo as you shouldnt ever vary your raises by the strength of your hand, and if your raising 4x every time you are likely spewing.
     
  17. SCTrojans SCTrojans is offline

    Los Angeles, CA
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    Dec 3rd, 2007 (12/3/2007 6:51pm) in reply to amak316

    I agree with Amak... other than the preflop 4x this hand was played well.

    C/R flop is much better than shove flop.

    You never ever want a fold in this spot with 88... because nobody is ever folding a better hand. You don't want to have fold equity because then he folds the hands you beat that he feels he is "priced in" to call... with smaller pairs or bad draws or overcards or anything like the AJ he was called by.

    Open shoving the flop is bad because there is next to no value... unless you get a better hand like 99,TT,JJ to fold (which he never has and will never fold to your shove)... or think you are getting called by a worse hand (which is much less likely if you open shove than check/raise) there is seriously no advantage.

    WP postflop OP, but make your preflop raises less.
     13
  18. wny2nyc47 wny2nyc47 is offline

    Princeton, NJ
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    Dec 3rd, 2007 (12/3/2007 7:39pm) in reply to amak316

    I don't think I was ripping his play - just saying the guy ain't folding. Be interested to see the result.Edit: missed the result from the OP above. RTFP, I guess. And he prolly wouldn't have folded to an open shove...
  19. larrygold larrygold is offline

    Farmingville, NY
    United States

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    Dec 4th, 2007 (12/4/2007 9:15am) in reply to SCTrojans

    Scott/Amit--thank you for the responses..its the 3rd level thinking that you guys recognized that i wanted to develop in this thread..the reason why i didnt want to bring the 4x pre raise into the discussion because there was a reason for it but not relevant to the post flop action other than pot committing the big stack after my check raise shove..

    I have open shoved with M<5 on a few occasions and also raised 3x a few times..what was shown down was big and hands and bluffs..i had not shown a 4x pre raise once..i wanted to show something different in this spot to induce a mistake..WHICH WORKED!

    post flop...i really dont see 99 1010 JJ in their ranges..remember its a bloated pot and they have me easily covered..they are reshoving those hands preflop..as played i put the 1st caller on a raggidity ace and the BB I had trouble putting on anything because he was was just getting great odds to call pre w/ anything..i was worried he potentially had a queen until he checked the flop...
     
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