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Clear call or fold 4 handed $225 sng (jennifear do ur magic)

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  1. orgnalsooners orgnalsooners is offline

    Austin, TX
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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 8:05am)

    Okay this happened the other day and I hardly ever post but I can't get this fold off my mind and am wondering if it was the right play so how bout some input... I dont know where the HH is but this will be fairly accurate. We are 4 handed of 10 player $225 1st in $1050, 2nd is $630 and 3rd is $420... Bdubs has the CL with $6900 I am in 2nd with $4500 and the other two have like $1400 ea. the blinds are $200-400 and Bdubs is shoving every hand obv. and Im obv folding. 3rd hand he shoves I have QQ. Do u call here? If i lose im out and get $0 If I win I am going to win the sng most likely as I will be shoving picking up blinds and antes and I will have 2/3's of chips in play... The risk vs reward of gettin 0 or getttin $1050 is what im looking for from the experts. I ended up folding the hand btw but am curious if I was correct in doing so thinking long term and making this decision every time... If i should have called where does the line end... Remember the opponent will shove any 2 7-2o, etc. Should I call with JJ? TT? AK? If u say fold what do u call with? only AA or KK or just AA? THanks bash away
    Sooners
     
  2. the_snail03 the_snail03 is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 8:12am) in reply to orgnalsooners

    im calling
     
  3. kojacks kojacks is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 8:39am) in reply to the_snail03

    ugh, easy call...

    be happy when dubs felts 10 5 off....hello der $1050...

    GG
  4. IbizaCF3 IbizaCF3 is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 9:03am) in reply to orgnalsooners

    Snap call bdubs here
  5. orgnalsooners orgnalsooners is offline

    Austin, TX
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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 9:08am) in reply to IbizaCF3

    Listen, I know my hand is golden but that isn't the point. If he tables K3 im only 70-30 and I am wondering about long term ev in sng strategy.. Finishing 4th in a sng is profit suicide and I do it way too often and im seriously doubting that this is a snap call which is why I am anxiously waiting jennifear's reply... obv if dubs had 3500 or so I would snap call here and take my chances but if I continue to fold I will make the money 90% of the time plus...
     
    Thread Starter
  6. rocksolid124 rocksolid124 is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 9:09am) in reply to orgnalsooners

    One sec, I'm gonna re-download SNG End game tools and I'll tell ya what I get.

    I actually think it's a fold honestly. But we'll see if I'm wrong; that's just my guess.
  7. orgnalsooners orgnalsooners is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 9:13am) in reply to rocksolid124

    K thanks im gonna go play deep stack at venetian and ill check back later....way later hopefully
     
    Thread Starter
  8. IbizaCF3 IbizaCF3 is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 9:20am) in reply to orgnalsooners

    gl at deepstacks but I still say it's a call.
  9. stabbyfoulke stabbyfoulke is offline

    West Hartford, CT
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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 9:42am) in reply to orgnalsooners

    Sooners,

    JJ+
    I am assuming that bdubs is cutoff, you the button, then the blinds, I ran this with the prize pool and the stack sizes .

    <TABLE class=simple cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=3 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD>CO</TD><TD><TD><TD>80.1%, 22+ Qx+ J2s+ J4o+ T2s+ T6o+ 92s+ 95o+ 82s+ 85o+ 72s+ 75o+ 62s+ 64o+ 52s+ 54o 42s+ 32s </TD></TR><TR><TD><TD>BU</TD><TD><TD>1.8%, JJ+ </TD></TR><TR><TD><TD><TD>SB</TD><TD>0.5%, AA </TD></TR><TR><TD><TD><TD>BB</TD><TD>0.5%, AA </TD></TR><TR><TD><TD>SB</TD><TD><TD>9.7%, 77+ A8s+ ATo+ KJs+ </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
  10. stabbyfoulke stabbyfoulke is offline

    West Hartford, CT
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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 9:44am) in reply to stabbyfoulke

    here is the whole calculation if it fits (calculation tool courtesy of jennifear)

    Level: 200.0/400.0/25.0
    Structure: 1050.0/630.0/420.0
    Players: 4
    Runtime: 185ms [300 Iterations]

    <TABLE class=simple cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=3 border=1><TBODY><TR><TH>Player</TH><TH>Stack</TH><TH>Push%</TH><TH>EQPre</TH><TH>EQPost</TH><TH>EQDiff</TH></TR><TR><TD>CO</TD><TD>6900.0</TD><TD>80.1%</TD><TD>780.8206</TD><TD>794.4561</TD><TD>13.6355</TD></TR><TR><TD>BU</TD><TD>4500.0</TD><TD>68.9%</TD><TD>662.4578</TD><TD>679.4128</TD><TD>16.95502</TD></TR><TR><TD>SB</TD><TD>1400.0</TD><TD>78.0%</TD><TD>328.3608</TD><TD>336.017</TD><TD>7.65616</TD></TR><TR><TD>BB</TD><TD>1400.0</TD><TD><TD>328.3608</TD><TD>290.1139</TD><TD>-38.24695</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

    Explanation:
    • <LI>Stack: Players stack before posting blinds. <LI>Push%: Percentage of hands a player open-pushes. <LI>EQPre: ICM equity before blinds. <LI>EQPost: ICM equity after hand. <LI>EQDiff: ICM equity change during hand.</LI>

    <TABLE class=simple cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=3 border=1><TBODY><TR><TH width=40>PU</TH><TH width=40>CA</TH><TH width=40>OC</TH><TH>Range</TH></TR><TR><TD>CO</TD><TD><TD><TD>80.1%, 22+ Qx+ J2s+ J4o+ T2s+ T6o+ 92s+ 95o+ 82s+ 85o+ 72s+ 75o+ 62s+ 64o+ 52s+ 54o 42s+ 32s </TD></TR><TR><TD><TD>BU</TD><TD><TD>1.8%, JJ+ </TD></TR><TR><TD><TD><TD>SB</TD><TD>0.5%, AA </TD></TR><TR><TD><TD><TD>BB</TD><TD>0.5%, AA </TD></TR><TR><TD><TD>SB</TD><TD><TD>9.7%, 77+ A8s+ ATo+ KJs+ </TD></TR><TR><TD><TD><TD>BB</TD><TD>5.1%, 99+ AQs+ AQo+ </TD></TR><TR><TD><TD>BB</TD><TD><TD>34.5%, 44+ Ax+ K3s+ K6o+ Q7s+ Q9o+ J9s+ JTo </TD></TR><TR><TD>BU</TD><TD><TD><TD>68.9%, 22+ Kx+ Q2s+ Q4o+ J2s+ J7o+ T2s+ T6o+ 93s+ 96o+ 84s+ 86o+ 73s+ 76o 63s+ 65o 52s+ 43s </TD></TR><TR><TD><TD>SB</TD><TD><TD>12.1%, 77+ A7s+ A9o+ KTs+ KQo </TD></TR><TR><TD><TD><TD>BB</TD><TD>4.2%, 99+ AQs+ AKo </TD></TR><TR><TD><TD>BB</TD><TD><TD>31.4%, 33+ Ax+ K4s+ K7o+ Q8s+ QTo+ JTs </TD></TR><TR><TD>SB</TD><TD><TD><TD>78.0%, 22+ Jx+ T2s+ T4o+ 92s+ 96o+ 84s+ 86o+ 73s+ 75o+ 63s+ 65o 53s+ 43s </TD></TR><TR><TD><TD>BB</TD><TD><TD>68.6%, 22+ Jx+ T2s+ T6o+ 95s+ 97o+ 85s+ 87o 75s+ 65s 54s </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
  11. rocksolid124 rocksolid124 is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 9:47am) in reply to rocksolid124

    Ok.

    Based on your analysis of him shoving any 2 cards, then according to SNGEGT, it's a call with QQ.

    THAT SAID, as far as my personal preferance, with the blinds at 200/400, and the other guys with <4 BBs, I probably fold anyway. But going STRICTLY on ICM and my limited knowledge of SNGEGT, it says it is a call.

    I think there are times to ignore ICM in my personal opinion, and my personal preferance is to fold in this situation, ignoring ICM.

    Like you said, it's important to get IN the money first in a single table sng. It's different from a multi where you play to win at all times. So I fold, ignoring the ICM.
  12. rocksolid124 rocksolid124 is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 9:58am) in reply to stabbyfoulke

    Stabby you probably know better than I about sngs as I haven't been playing them for a while, and am a bit rusty.

    Would you agree with me that sometimes it is right to ignore ICM, and that this possibly could be one of those situations?

    If not, that's cool and all, I'm also trying to learn.
  13. bertminatti bertminatti is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 10:06am) in reply to kojacks

    Easy Call? plz learn ICM.

    A lot of this depends on your position (SB, BB?) But most of the time the only hands you can call here with are KK and AA.
  14. ronkend ronkend is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 10:09am) in reply to rocksolid124

    imo, if you have the proper BR then then this is a call all day. If he felts you, he felts you. On the flip side if you win the hand, you win the sng.
  15. 2BlackNines 2BlackNines is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 10:14am) in reply to ronkend

    if your playin for itm fold if playing to win call. I would never fold there with someone shoving every hand, but i dont exactly play using correct icm logic all the time. Most profitable play overall is probally a fold.
  16. BantaCruz BantaCruz is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 10:18am) in reply to rocksolid124

    I dont understand how it could be right to ignore ICM for long term ev. If you are wishing to reduce your variance then you can have situations where it is correct to ignore ICM but that isnt really what you want to be doing unless you are happy to reduce your profits long term. As long as the range assigned is correct then this is a call all day imo.
  17. stabbyfoulke stabbyfoulke is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 10:24am) in reply to rocksolid124

    I am pretty sure I call here every time. Sooners will be able to have steak for dinner whether he wins the sng or bubbles in 4th, so that should not be a concern.
  18. Jennifear Jennifear is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 12:15pm) in reply to orgnalsooners

    Make the call with JJ or better for sure. I think I call with TT/99 here just to avoid the future situation that involves bdubs taking further advantage of this situation in subsequent hands.

    Stabby got the ICM end of it right.
  19. Cortz Cortz is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 12:31pm) in reply to orgnalsooners

    i call...then i proceed to dominate the bubble

    folding qq 4 handed in a sng against som1 who is obv exploiting the bubble shoving every hand is a mistake. You call and you win this hand you MOST of the time go on to take down 1st place.
  20. FlopNutsOnYou FlopNutsOnYou is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 12:34pm) in reply to orgnalsooners

    Call due to if you win you win the sng.
  21. skankmofo skankmofo is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 1:16pm) in reply to Jennifear

    ^^ this is the best point, IF you play these a lot, you call and he'll think twice about pushing with any 2 on you when you're both deep...can probably pin him to a tighter range in the future.
  22. bertminatti bertminatti is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 1:22pm) in reply to skankmofo

    No he won't. Bdubs is not an idiot, he knows you're only calling with the absolute premium of hands and will continue to shove ATC.

    If you want to make a point, call with a hand like A9. That would be terrible, however.
  23. JDsmith9 JDsmith9 is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 1:23pm) in reply to FlopNutsOnYou

    not that you need any more input at this point, but i say ICM IschmeeM...absolute must call if you are playing within your bankroll. If youre that far out of your bankroll fold that ish
     
  24. I Fold I Fold is online now

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 1:30pm) in reply to orgnalsooners

    Load your ICM calculator and ask it to calculate why you let that guy who you know is playing air with his stack and that situation make you fold with QQ....I see you logic with 1010 but not on ladies night.....
  25. Cortz Cortz is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 1:33pm) in reply to bertminatti

    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR bgColor=#eeeedd><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top> </TD><TD>Re(3): Clear call or fold 4 handed $225 sng (jennifear do ur magic)
    by bertminatti on 2/16/2008 13:22 </TD><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><NOBR> </NOBR></TD><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD bgColor=#ffffff></TD><TD colSpan=2><TABLE cellPadding=2 border=0 celspacing="0"><TBODY><TR><TD>No he won't. Bdubs is not an idiot, he knows you're only calling with the absolute premium of hands and will continue to shove ATC.

    If you want to make a point, call with a hand like A9. That would be terrible, however. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>i agree
  26. NJDevils26 NJDevils26 is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 1:33pm) in reply to I Fold

    Who cares about the math here, if hes been shoving almost everyhand call here for sure and dont be a puss and go for the win
  27. Kajun Kajun is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 1:37pm) in reply to orgnalsooners

    I snap call this... how is someone playing $225 sngs that doesnt understand ICM?

    wow
  28. 420beats 420beats is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 3:49pm) in reply to Kajun

    snap fold.
    once your in the money you can still come first.or second.
    changes the math abit.
  29. 420beats 420beats is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 3:53pm) in reply to 420beats

    Especially if you are good hu in these things.or at least feel you are better than the villain.
  30. catfan17 catfan17 is offline

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    Feb 16th, 2008 (2/16/2008 4:07pm) in reply to 420beats

    Yeah cause skill really plays out in a hu match with both players having 5-10 bbs:/
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