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Continuation Bets

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  1. TFly33 TFly33 is offline

    Washington, DC
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    Oct 21st, 2007 (10/21/2007 8:59pm)

    I realized that I am losing the majority of my chips on continuation bets when i flop nothing with a solid hand.
    Are there times when you shouldnt make a continuation bet? I always come back to the point in Super System when Brunson says I am just about always going to bet when i raised preflop, but I'm starting to think it is killing me.
    Am I playing too aggressive, thoughts?
  2. delete22 delete22 is offline

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    Oct 21st, 2007 (10/21/2007 9:03pm) in reply to TFly33

    board texture is very important when deciding whether or not to c bet
  3. mrdrevil2u mrdrevil2u is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 1:17am) in reply to delete22

    and the nature of the players in the hand and position. When you c bet what do you put your opponenets on?
  4. stackbuilder stackbuilder is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 1:20am) in reply to mrdrevil2u

    I also find myself c-betting nearly always in mid/late stage of tourneys. It usually works because people at lower limits tend to play pretty weak, but there are times when I get reraised and I kick myself KNOWING that I shouldn't have bet into that flop. What other factors come into consideration when you guys are thinking about c-betting?
  5. specv318 specv318 is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 1:22am) in reply to TFly33

    Also, how much are you making your c-bets for (in terms of the pot)? Are you considering the number of people in the pot? Your position? Table image? What level are you playing at?
  6. rocket5 rocket5 is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 1:26am) in reply to stackbuilder

    I think your image at the table is one of the most important things to take into consideration. Usually when you are c betting it is only against like two players max right. What is their image? and what do you think that they think about you and your c bet.
  7. threebanger threebanger is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 1:33am) in reply to specv318

    Lots to think about, but basically if you led preflop and are in doubt, always c-bet.

    I think the problem might be things you are doing before the flop even comes out. Position, preflop raise size, etc. All of those details plus the others asked for above will help answer the question. Prepare a detailed question that answers these questions with an example or two and you will get a good answer.
  8. TFly33 TFly33 is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 1:49am) in reply to threebanger

    Well here is my thought process. Let me start by saying I understand that c-betting is a necessity to winning tournament poker.

    Lets say blinds are 1000/2000 and I raise late position with AK to 5500. Flop comes 68J and I will make an average continuation bet, I would say that'll be about 7k (assuming the pot is about 12k?) That means I am putting 12.5k at risk to win about 6.5k, meaning that I must win 2 continuation bets for me to make it profitable for me to fold when I get shoved on? Does this sound about right to people? Also what are your thoughts on the size of a continuation bet in that type of example, I understand there are many factors (who is in with me, position, image and so on) but I'm am just curious what percentage of the pot you generally bet when continuation betting?
    Thread Starter
  9. specv318 specv318 is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 1:54am) in reply to TFly33

    As far as size goes, I bet around 1/2 pot. You only have to take down 1 in 3 pots to break even with this play. Just make sure you're consistent and bet roughly the same way when you have a hand.
  10. garyak1 garyak1 is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 1:57am) in reply to TFly33

    55-65% of pot
  11. threebanger threebanger is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 2:06am) in reply to TFly33

    A little more than half pot. It's also important to make your c-bets look roughly like your value bets when you do hit the flop.

    I see this all the time in the micro games, if they hit the flop it's pot sized, if they missed it's barely half. If you're making this mistake also, it's going to be real easy for your opponents to pick off your c-bets.
  12. creg27 creg27 is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 7:43am) in reply to threebanger

    55-65% of pot.

    Another thing i kind of hate when my c-bet fails is when i catch a great piece on the turn. Like your akspades, flop js8d5c c-bet and you hit say a ten spades , obviously your chances are improving here but if you check the turn you know your gonna be put to the test, but if you bet your pretty much committing yourself to the pot.

    i think i c-bet as per doyles advice - obv depending table image, stack size etc
  13. tcmeb tcmeb is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 8:04am) in reply to threebanger

    <TABLE cellPadding=2 border=0 celspacing="0"><TBODY><TR><TD>A little more than half pot. It's also important to make your c-bets look roughly like your value bets when you do hit the flop.

    I see this all the time in the micro games, if they hit the flop it's pot sized, if they missed it's barely half. If you're making this mistake also, it's going to be real easy for your opponents to pick off your c-bets.
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

    ^^ I like this response. Hopefully some of the pros around here will add some further insight to this thread. Like the OP, I struggle at times with the decision to cbet a missed flop too, especially if it's a dangerous flop, like all one suit.
  14. TheVillageGrinder TheVillageGrinder is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 10:38am) in reply to tcmeb

    Harrington has a great section on c bets and he refers them throughout all his books. Basically he says that you should be c betting about 50-60% of the time after leading out. You won't be filling your hand that often but your opponents will have a hard time telling when you do. C-bets should be about 50% of the pot, but of course vary the amount to keep everyone guessing. Never c bet more than two opponents. Also, as the t'ment wears on, feel free to bet a little less than you normally would as your bet begins to reflect a higher and higher percentage of your chips. And personally, I don't really recommend c betting early on, especially in low limits. The play will be lost on those monkeys.

    And as everyone has said, texture is very important. Just no reason to c bet into scary flops against multiple opponents. Just save your chips.
  15. louiemdj louiemdj is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 3:08pm) in reply to TFly33

    It all depends on what the rest of the table will let you get away with.

    There are times that I will continuation bet the flop 95% of the time if the table is really passive and I have a huge stack.

    On the other hand, when I'm at a table where it seems like everyone is playing back at me every time I make a continuation bet and it looks like I may have missed, I like to bet when I actually have something. I still bet about 50-60% of time when I don't hit because it's good to be played back at when you actually do hit something. It's not always bad to bet and fold to a raise after the flop sometimes. It make whatever donkey you are playing against think you are weak and he can just bully you around, and you can eventually trap him and take all his chips.

    Basically, it all depends on your image and how others at your table are playing. Everything's situational...
  16. New Shawboy New Shawboy is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 3:16pm) in reply to louiemdj

    I don't think you need to cbet 60% of the time that you don't flop anything to set up a trap. If you are getting played back at all the time, this is a total spew (if you plan on folding to a raise).
     
  17. louiemdj louiemdj is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 3:31pm) in reply to New Shawboy

    That number may be a little bit high. I just wanted to convey that I think it's still necessary to continuation bet sometimes when you don't hit so you don't become totally predictable. As for setting a trap, you don't have to set one, but it is always a possibility when you are playing against a hyperagressive table that thinks they can push you around.
  18. louiemdj louiemdj is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 3:34pm) in reply to New Shawboy

    And I'm not saying I am ever really planning on folding to a raise. I was simply saying that folding to a raise can help establish an image that could be to your advantage later in the tournament. It could set you up to build your stack up or maybe even trap someone if you so choose...
  19. Lenny Lenny is offline lail henny!

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 3:41pm) in reply to TFly33

    Doing anything "just about always" is not necessarily a good idea in poker. You do want to be consistent, though.

    That's one reason why having a standard raise is good, so that no matter what you're raising with, rags, suited connectors or Aces you raise the same.

    If you are going to mix it up you need a way to randomize it, like Harrington's watch method.

    As far as C-bets go, if you are throwing chips out there with a C-bet that you plan to surrender to any raise when you miss with AK, etc. then you are indeed throwing away your chips.

    Much better to check in that case. But if you are deepstacked and you can come back over the top to try to take the hand back sometimes, that is an option.

    I think you probably need to try to slow down a bit and keep pots small if you are not going to defend your C-bets or you think you are getting outflopped.

    Also, board texture as already posted is very important.
  20. kdogpenny1 kdogpenny1 is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 3:59pm) in reply to TFly33

    Its not about just throwing a bet out there. So many factors go into a proper c-bet. Board texture, opponent skill vs ur skill, position, chips stacks... Think about continuation betting as telling a story. In a day of floating and other loose plays, its not just about just betting and quitting.
  21. mrnospinzone mrnospinzone is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 4:19pm) in reply to kdogpenny1

    bet 70%+ of the pot, cause if your getting called or reraised, you pretty much know your beat, unless you have the better hand
  22. JAAAAA!!!! JAAAAA!!!! is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 4:31pm) in reply to mrnospinzone

    It's hard (impossible) to answer without more specific information. Am I in position, or out of position? How many players called pre-flop? Who are the other players in the hand, and how have they been playing? What is my stack in relation to the blinds? What are the stack sizes of the other players in the hand? What is my hand? What was the texture of the flop?
  23. louiemdj louiemdj is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 4:55pm) in reply to JAAAAA!!!!

    ^^^ agree. I stated earlier it's all situational. You can't just make a general comment that covers most situations...
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