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Continuation bets. How often do you use them?

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  1. pbrentos pbrentos is offline

    United States

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    Sep 9th, 2005 (9/9/2005 4:50pm)

    A quick question for all the superb minds out there.

    I've noticed a weakness in my game relating to continutation betting early in tournaments or SNG's when the blinds are still relatively low. Often I find myself raising it up in later position with a legitimate hand like AK only to be called in one or two spots. We then proceed 3-handed to see a flop something like J83. Since I showed preflop aggression it is often checked to me.

    <span>NOW</span>...do you <span>always</span> bet out here? If so, how much in relation to the pot? If not, why? What about with a flop like 7T9?

    <span>Ok</span>, lets change it up a little bit. Suppose you had two limpers and then raised it out of the small blind with both calling behind. Same hole cards, same flop. <span>Do you bet here in first position?</span> Why or why not?

    Please, let the discussion begin.
  2. pokerisnice pokerisnice is offline

    Santa Rosa, CA
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    Sep 9th, 2005 (9/9/2005 5:00pm) in reply to pbrentos

    with that flop i would definitely always bet... perhaps 2/3 of the pot.. you definitely want to show strength... your raise pre flop showed strength, you MUST bet again here. now if you bet and get called, then its time to put on the brakes unless the turn card is an A or K.

    Unless the flop is extremely scary, such as 3 suited cards or 3 cards to a straight i would always bet the flop with my AK.

    You will be surprised how many times your opponents fold to your continuation bet
  3. drglen drglen is offline

    Brooklyn, NY
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    Sep 10th, 2005 (9/10/2005 12:14pm) in reply to pokerisnice

    to say you MUST bet is wrong. if you always bet a savvy player will pick up on it and raise you just to see what you'll do. you must also take into account the pre-flop action to keep yourself from getting burned. think about this: there's an EP limper and an MP limper and you raise on the cutoff with AKs -- both limpers call your raise and the flop comes T93 rainbow and it checks to you twice -- you're in position but against two people who have limped and then called a raise, usually this indicates pocket pairs or maybe a drawing hand like QJ -- if you make a continuation bet at this flop you shouldn't be surprised to get check-raised out of the hand.

    if you have position (your check brings the turn card) a check is not a hopeless play. the next card comes out could be your ace or king -- or more likely it's another brick and now you can bet at it if it's checked to you twice -- or it could be a fourth of your suit and you are better served by checking to try and complete your flush.

    but to say that must always make continuation bets is nonsense and over time will lose you more chips then it will gain.

    there are great times for continuation bets and you should make them a good portion of the time(against <span>ONE</span> opponent) unless the flop has given you a very strong draw -- but every time? no way.
  4. pbrentos pbrentos is offline

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    Sep 10th, 2005 (9/10/2005 8:14pm) in reply to drglen

    Thanks...these are the types of responses I was looking for.

    Anyone else care to put down in writing how you play raised pots when checked to you after missing the flop?

    OR, if you are the first to act after missing the flop?
    Thread Starter
  5. situationist situationist is offline

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    Sep 11th, 2005 (9/11/2005 3:12am) in reply to pokerisnice

    Like the good DR said --

    to say you MUST bet every time is foolish. You need to vary up your play. But, the amount of times your opponents fold to your bet is exactly what makes it profitable. Bet 1/2 the pot and you only need to win the pot 1/3 times just to break even. Bet 1/3 of the pot and you only need to win 1/4 times to break even. Use this bet when you have position and flop a monster, against a savvy player, and it is a good way to trap them -- since it looks like your standard move.
  6. jvidro03 jvidro03 is offline

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    Sep 11th, 2005 (9/11/2005 11:26am) in reply to pbrentos

    it is not profitable to bet out with 3 players to make a continuation bet. thats like betting your 99 when the flop comes KJ7. I only make continuation bets when its between 1 other player besides me.
    GL....
    Nick
  7. Gabovitch Gabovitch is offline

    Nashville, TN
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    Sep 11th, 2005 (9/11/2005 11:49am) in reply to jvidro03

    I disagree, actually the presence of another guy in the pot makes it somewhat less likely someone is slowplaying and so a bet of about half the pot will still be profitable in the long run. I agree though that you don't have to make a continuation bet everytime, it depends on your feelings about the other players and the texture of the flop. You get to 4 handed and I don't make continuation bets.
  8. jvidro03 jvidro03 is offline

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    Sep 11th, 2005 (9/11/2005 2:38pm) in reply to Gabovitch

    when your playing with good players who know what youre doing isnt profitbale and i believe if you make a cont bet into a 3-way pot is stupid. Youre most ikely beat and probably at least a 3-1 dog. Especially when you lead into the field, youre just throwing your money away to gain information. I dont see how this could be profitable if you have no draw or no pair.
  9. pokerisnice pokerisnice is offline

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    Sep 12th, 2005 (9/12/2005 2:54am) in reply to drglen

    my "you must bet" comment was meant in the context of the hand he described, if you raise with AK and the flop comes J 8 3, i believe it is a must bet... that is a pretty raggedy flop, and a continuation bet will win you the pot enough times to be a profitable play.

    as we all know, there re very few, if any "musts" or "always" in poker
  10. pokerisnice pokerisnice is offline

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    Sep 12th, 2005 (9/12/2005 3:03am) in reply to pbrentos

    one more thing about continuation bets... they are much more effective and much less risky when you are in position...

    and about your 2nd scenario, raising with AQ from the SB with 2 limpers already in the pot is a poor play.. AQ is not a very strong hand, especially when you will be playing it out of position the entire hand. A much better play is to just call and hope to hit something on the flop. if you get an A or a Q on the flop you probably have the best hand.. if you miss the flop completely you can get out of the hand cheaply. Whereas if you had raised pre flop, you might feel obligated to make a continuation bet on the flop no matter what and then have to fold to a raise from another player.
  11. doyleflush doyleflush is offline

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    Sep 12th, 2005 (9/12/2005 12:39pm) in reply to pokerisnice

    My advie is most certainly to bet, my reasoning comes based on what u see a lot of limpers who call raisers hold is generally A. a low pocket pair or B. Ax suited or C. a crafty good player or a complete donk suited connectors. Now with that flop as you had shown agression i would defintely take a stab at the pot with two checks in front of u, if you are only called by one player use ur ebst judgement and dont assuem and ace or king on the turn helps u more than them, if two players call proceed cautiopusly and dont fire another bullet. agression is the key to winning poker u may not have the strongest holding but can push people off their low pp or middle pair with a gutshot. Hope this helps man gl at the tables- Evenkeal
  12. NIURAT NIURAT is offline

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    Sep 12th, 2005 (9/12/2005 1:44pm) in reply to pbrentos

    <SPAN>I've been following this post for a couple of days now, probably because this is something I think about all the time. Continuation bets have a lot of variables to consider (doesn't everything poker question)?</SPAN>

    <SPAN>Table image is the most important thing to consider when making just about any bet, especially if you’re considering “overplaying” a hand like AK.</SPAN>

    <SPAN>You need to look at hands you’ve already played at this table. What have you been showing them? What have you already been rising with? What were hands you’ve won big pots with? Do you your opponents have any information at all about you to work with?</SPAN>

    <SPAN>You’re bet pre-flop is all representational. Any raise pre-flop indicates your personal reflection on the strength of your hand and how many chips your are willing to risk on it’s behave. The size of the bet reflects two conflicting concepts. On one hand you’re narrowing down the field, and at the same time, you’re attempting to get chips into the pot. Now, if you’re perceived as tight, raises will represent “good” hands, versus if you’re perceived as loose, your raise is perceived as a range of marginal to good. Based on that, they will make there decisions accordingly (with hands like 55 or KQ).</SPAN>

    <SPAN>How is any of this relevant? If you don’t connect with AK on a board like J83 then whether or not you should to attack is dependent on whether or not you’re opponents will buy into what you’re attempting to represent (in this case, a marginal hand containing a jack or a pocket pair). If you’re bet is unrealistic or doesn’t match what they think of your play, then you’re going to get called and raised. </SPAN>

    <SPAN>The other variable is the strength of the field. What will the do if they don’t’ connect? Are the players in the pot call stations? Do they try to over employ a lot of abstract poker into there game? You're predicted reaction from them will decide whether or not you should make that bet. The objective should be to win the pot right here and now if you think your opponents are capable of folding. Therefore, you need to bet enough to shut out middle pairs.
    </SPAN><SPAN>
    When holding AK, I often represent a different hand if I don’t connect (like a straight for flush draw). In the scenario of the 7T9, I would consider representing that flush draw by check/calling the flop,(which, also gives me a chance to hit an Ace or a King) and possibly beating out or check/raising on the turn if the flush or straight card hits. However, I wouldn’t suggest this if you’re playing with donkeys. It’s not ABC, and it’s a little above them. </SPAN>
  13. Gabovitch Gabovitch is offline

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    Sep 12th, 2005 (9/12/2005 10:37pm) in reply to jvidro03

    I actually find that when I make a bet into a pot like this, I win the pot about half the time even with 2 other players, which makes it a very profitable play. How is that you're "most likely beat?" The other two players have just checked which with a flop like this probably indicates weakness.
  14. AawwNutz AawwNutz is offline

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    Sep 13th, 2005 (9/13/2005 11:10pm) in reply to pbrentos

    I rarely make a continuation bet unless heads up. It just doesn't seem to work well enough with a couple of players in. If there are two other players in, I visualize one of them with big cards and one with a medium pair. If there is a draw on board, someone may have it.

    As for continuation bets in the heads up scenario, I will normally always make one if I raised someone pre-flop. If I raise and get a flat call behind me that puts me out of position, I almost always assume that they have a mid-pair. So, interestingly, I will make a continuation bet with an AK3 board, but wouldn't on a 794 board. I doubt anyone behind me would flat call me with AK and any other hand they would probably try to find out where they are and let me know how badly I am beat.
     
  15. chipgeeks chipgeeks is offline

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    Sep 14th, 2005 (9/14/2005 2:29pm) in reply to NIURAT

    Niurat hit the nail on the head.

    I'm copying and saving off that post. Nice post.
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