The PRINCIPLES are timeless.

The techniques? Well, applying the principles means that the tactics (i.e. techniques) are going to be mutable.

Example:

The PRINCIPLE is to be aggressive in late position with good cards, especially if you are first in. You want weak hands to fold, and you also want to take out strong drawing hands, too.

The "standard raise" for a unopened pot was 3.5BB. If you analyze it, you see that this is a pot bet. That technique doesn't always achieve the desired result(s). So, to achieve the ideal implementation of the principle, you may need to open for more BBs. How many? That's for you to determine, based on the game, stakes, etc.

 

Originally Posted by MadTiger

The PRINCIPLES are timeless.

The techniques? Well, applying the principles means that the tactics (i.e. techniques) are going to be mutable.

Example:

The PRINCIPLE is to be aggressive in late position with good cards, especially if you are first in. You want weak hands to fold, and you also want to take out strong drawing hands, too.

The "standard raise" for a unopened pot was 3.5BB. If you analyze it, you see that this is a pot bet. That technique doesn't always achieve the desired result(s). So, to achieve the ideal implementation of the principle, you may need to open for more BBs. How many? That's for you to determine, based on the game, stakes, etc.

Im going to have to suggest to not OPEN a pot for more then 3.5x at any time in a NL turney

 

Originally Posted by MadTiger

The PRINCIPLES are timeless.

The techniques? Well, applying the principles means that the tactics (i.e. techniques) are going to be mutable.

Example:

The PRINCIPLE is to be aggressive in late position with good cards, especially if you are first in. You want weak hands to fold, and you also want to take out strong drawing hands, too.

The "standard raise" for a unopened pot was 3.5BB. If you analyze it, you see that this is a pot bet. That technique doesn't always achieve the desired result(s). So, to achieve the ideal implementation of the principle, you may need to open for more BBs. How many? That's for you to determine, based on the game, stakes, etc.

lawl @ this. Plz never open for 3.5 or more bb's

 

Originally Posted by rock3656

Im going to have to suggest to not OPEN a pot for more then 3.5x at any time in a NL turney

You didn't become 16th by limping or min raising with aces on the button.

Those quoting the raise sizes as wrong are missing the point of Brunson's chapter. Doyle is writing about NLHE cash games, not tournaments. At the time Brunson had written Super/System, he had likely played in less than 15 NLHE tournaments, total. Poker, to Doyle at that time, was entirely about cash games.

So, keeping everything in the right context, a 3.5x the BB raise in a NLHE cash game is completely appropriate, and in fact, is probably too small if you're talking about a smallish (1/2, 1/3, 2/5) NLHE cash game in a casino.

To the OP's question, I think Super/System isn't sufficient for many games today (anything at 1/2 online or 5/10 live, or higher), mostly because everyone in those game knows the value of aggression, set mining and suited connectors. Players today are far less likely to get paid off by an overpair or TPTK as they were in the infancy of Texas Hold'em games in the late 70s.

 

Originally Posted by grapsfan

Those quoting the raise sizes as wrong are missing the point of Brunson's chapter. Doyle is writing about NLHE cash games, not tournaments. At the time Brunson had written Super/System, he had likely played in less than 15 NLHE tournaments, total. Poker, to Doyle at that time, was entirely about cash games.

So, keeping everything in the right context, a 3.5x the BB raise in a NLHE cash game is completely appropriate, and in fact, is probably too small if you're talking about a smallish (1/2, 1/3, 2/5) NLHE cash game in a casino.

To the OP's question, I think Super/System isn't sufficient for many games today (anything at 1/2 online or 5/10 live, or higher), mostly because everyone in those game knows the value of aggression, set mining and suited connectors. Players today are far less likely to get paid off by an overpair or TPTK as they were in the infancy of Texas Hold'em games in the late 70s.

Thank you, grapsfan, for some redemption.

As to your last paragraph, are you implying/stating that ALL of the principles of S/S have honestly been mainstreamed?

didnt' know OP and doyle were refering to cash games. I have never read super system, but have read other poker books, sorry for the misunderstanding. opening 3.5 or more in cash games is relatively std.

 

Originally Posted by rock3656

Im going to have to suggest to not OPEN a pot for more then 3.5x at any time in a NL turney

Really in the first or second level of a less than $20 tourny you can open 4.5x 1st lvl and 4x 2nd lvl and still be profitable. As graps says in low nl live games it is still cool to open 3.5x or in some cases more and be profitable.