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A couple of very questionable laydowns with QQ from WCOOP $1k

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  1. phatcat phatcat is offline

    Hutchinson, KS
    United States

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 5:46pm)

    1) Standard, donkeyish or debatable preflop laydown of QQ?

    pokerstars Game #12233281671: Tournament #70000014, $1000+$50 Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (500/1000) - 2007/09/23 - 21:18:56 (ET)
    Table '70000014 263' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
    Seat 1: melonhead (35366 in chips)
    Seat 2: dre042686 (12971 in chips)
    Seat 3: krawiec (20798 in chips)
    Seat 4: G0ldFing3r (58134 in chips)
    Seat 5: mrnutcracker (83995 in chips)
    Seat 6: sskarz (25901 in chips)
    Seat 7: JRD312 (34943 in chips)
    Seat 8: QTgirlE3 (100931 in chips)
    Seat 9: slimshaggy (136625 in chips)
    melonhead: posts the ante 75
    dre042686: posts the ante 75
    krawiec: posts the ante 75
    G0ldFing3r: posts the ante 75
    mrnutcracker: posts the ante 75
    sskarz: posts the ante 75
    JRD312: posts the ante 75
    QTgirlE3: posts the ante 75
    slimshaggy: posts the ante 75
    JRD312: posts small blind 500
    QTgirlE3: posts big blind 1000
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to slimshaggy [Qs Qc]
    slimshaggy: raises 1550 to 2550
    melonhead: folds
    dre042686: folds
    krawiec: folds
    G0ldFing3r: raises 8450 to 11000
    mrnutcracker: folds
    sskarz: folds
    JRD312: raises 23868 to 34868 and is all-in
    QTgirlE3: folds
    slimshaggy: folds
    G0ldFing3r: folds
    JRD312 collected 26225 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 26225 | Rake 0
    Seat 1: melonhead folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 2: dre042686 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 3: krawiec folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 4: G0ldFing3r folded before Flop
    Seat 5: mrnutcracker folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: sskarz (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 7: JRD312 (small blind) collected (26225)
    Seat 8: QTgirlE3 (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 9: slimshaggy folded before Flop

    2) This spot sucks and I think it might be a bad fold in retrospect but do I really want to stack off 50+ BB's here with just a pair? This is one of those spots where im more likely to play vs. a "good" player because its much more likely they could be semi-bluffing and much less likely they would be cold calling with AA-KK here preflop like the random donkeys seem to love to do. In the heat of the moment I felt like I'm only beating JJ here and way behind AA, KK or a set. I suppose diamonds are in his range too though and possibly other smaller pairs?

    PokerStars Game #12235705792: Tournament #70000014, $1000+$50 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIII (1250/2500) - 2007/09/23 - 23:43:12 (ET)
    Table '70000014 278' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
    Seat 2: Aastrup (211054 in chips)
    Seat 3: Cowboy Laila (218101 in chips)
    Seat 4: thedonator (40758 in chips)
    Seat 5: slimshaggy (238902 in chips)
    Seat 6: SpunkyM0nkey (139897 in chips)
    Seat 7: Pokerkong1 (186380 in chips)
    Seat 8: adam eterno (92679 in chips)
    Seat 9: darkflush (28287 in chips)
    Aastrup: posts the ante 250
    Cowboy Laila: posts the ante 250
    thedonator: posts the ante 250
    slimshaggy: posts the ante 250
    SpunkyM0nkey: posts the ante 250
    Pokerkong1: posts the ante 250
    adam eterno: posts the ante 250
    darkflush: posts the ante 250
    Aastrup: posts small blind 1250
    Cowboy Laila: posts big blind 2500
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to slimshaggy [Qd Qs]
    thedonator: folds
    Vuoti is connected
    slimshaggy: raises 4152 to 6652
    SpunkyM0nkey: calls 6652
    Pokerkong1: folds
    adam eterno: folds
    darkflush: folds
    Aastrup: folds
    Cowboy Laila: folds
    *** FLOP *** [7c Td 3d]
    slimshaggy: bets 12000
    SpunkyM0nkey: raises 38000 to 50000
    slimshaggy: folds
    SpunkyM0nkey collected 43054 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 43054 | Rake 0
    Board [7c Td 3d]
    Seat 2: Aastrup (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 3: Cowboy Laila (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 4: thedonator folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 5: slimshaggy folded on the Flop
    Seat 6: SpunkyM0nkey collected (43054)
    Seat 7: Pokerkong1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 8: adam eterno folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 9: darkflush (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    444 11
  2. Wein Wein is offline Sunday Millionaire

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 5:49pm) in reply to phatcat

    I shove or put in a raise in the 2nd -- could be a diamond draw, A-T, any mid-pocket pair. I just think more times than not you're ahead in #2 so it's a +EV shove.

    I probably fold #1.
     
  3. AFink93 AFink93 is offline

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 5:51pm) in reply to phatcat

    I dont like either one of them. But youre ranked and Im not even close..

    1st one even if you lose you still have 100BB.. I think shove is in order there..

    2nd one. I dont know. Looks weak on your part unless you have a read hes a complete nit.
  4. darkcheck_ darkcheck_ is offline

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 5:54pm) in reply to phatcat

    hand 1 is tough, i prob call

    hand 2 im not folding
     
  5. PHX_Rises PHX_Rises is offline

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 5:55pm) in reply to phatcat

    I don't think I fold the 2nd one...but too often I think people are trying to just pickoff my cont. bets on low flops like that.
  6. 8ROM 8ROM is offline

    Lymm
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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 5:56pm) in reply to phatcat

    first hand is autofold and 2nd hand is auto shove IMO
  7. KMan1564 KMan1564 is offline

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 5:56pm) in reply to PHX_Rises

    1st...as played

    2nd...shove. I don't think he has a set by the way he raised...possibly a flush draw, but IMO you have to go with QQ here.
  8. sandler1860 sandler1860 is offline

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 5:58pm) in reply to 8ROM

    Agree with 8ROM, 1st instafold, 2nd put it in there.
     
  9. Crazy Cypriot Crazy Cypriot is offline

    Lefkosia
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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 6:00pm) in reply to sandler1860

    hand 1 u played it as good it gets...

    Hand 2 is mehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. the majority of the time i 3 bet all in on the flop, but i could understand a fold if u have strong additional info about the player
     
  10. mattg1983 mattg1983 is online now buying action

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 6:02pm) in reply to phatcat

    as a couple others said, I think its a clear fold and then a clear shove
     12
  11. ahh_snap ahh_snap is offline

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 6:21pm) in reply to mattg1983

    agree w/ matt.. although i don't understand why you think most great players wouldn't flat call a big % of the time w/ AA or KK in the 2nd hand.
  12. supermoves supermoves is offline invented poker

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 6:21pm) in reply to phatcat

    With the amount of chips you have, I dont see any reason you need to call in situation 1. I would say at BEST youre up against AK.

    In the second, I think its better to push. The flop is shitty, so its likley you are just continuation betting and he is making a move. I dont think he pushes that hard with a set, I think he reraises preflop with KK or AA. He could have something like 99 or a couple diamonds.

    *EDIT* ah_snap, to answer your question above, I think his position dictates why he doesnt flatcall with KK or AA. Too many players left behind. If his flat call was from the button or even the cutoff, maybe you could increase the chance of AA or KK, but not from EP, IMO.
    1
  13. SCTrojans SCTrojans is offline

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 6:29pm) in reply to phatcat

    instafold #1 shove #2
     13
  14. 8ROM 8ROM is offline

    Lymm
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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 6:29pm) in reply to supermoves

    just saw you finished 19th so probably both folds were correct, lol.
  15. phatcat phatcat is offline

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 8:17pm) in reply to ahh_snap

    unless there are some aggressive players behind who r more likely to reraise this doesnt seem like a good spot to flat call with AA/KK because the original raise was fairly small and if you flat call with so many peopple yet to act and the blinds being laid a good price to see a flop it seems like you're going to have a multi-way pot a lot of the time which i dont particularly want. i understand you want to get value out of AA/KK and i will often call if im in LP or the blinds HU with these hands but my goal is usually to try and be HU, and much more likely to know where you stand after the flop, if at all possible. Maybe thats a leak.

    -phatty
    444 11
    Thread Starter
  16. warden warden is offline

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 8:20pm) in reply to mattg1983

    <table bgcolor="#ffffff" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#eeeedd"><td><table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top"> </td><td>Re(1): A couple of very questionable laydowns with QQ from WCOOP $1k
    by mattg1983 on 9/25/2007 17:02 </td><td><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td><nobr> </nobr> </td><td><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td></td><td> </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffff"><td bgcolor="#ffffff"></td><td colspan="2"><table celspacing="0" border="0" cellpadding="2"><tbody><tr><td>as a couple others said, I think its a clear fold and then a clear shove</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table>
     2
  17. ActionJeff ActionJeff is offline

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 8:25pm) in reply to SCTrojans

    (1) obvious fold vs most opponents (2) loooooooooool
    1
  18. phatcat phatcat is offline

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 8:27pm) in reply to phatcat

    everyone saying #2 is a shove. do you think our shove has fold equity? if i thought it did then i almost certainly would have shoved. again, im not even disagreeing as i said in the OP, i think in retrospect it might be a shove, i just want to be convinced. at that time i didnt feel like he was folding and that being said i didnt think he would be committing so much with a friggin underpair. as for flush draws, what possible flush draws can he call an EP raise with and being EP himself? AQ/KQ/QJ is not possible since i have the Q, im a dog to AK(although clearly priced in), is AJ even in his range? i dont think it should be but maybe i guess, cant be anything with a 10 in it, just doesnt leave much. im still not convinced.

    -phatty
    444 11
    Thread Starter
  19. FoNZ87 FoNZ87 is offline

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 8:35pm) in reply to ActionJeff

    (1) fold.

    (2) is tough...i jus have a question about your image at this table...for instance have u been making lots of continuations bets so far at this table? making your standard 2.5x raise pre or watever it is then leading out the flop (on flops such as the one in #2) If so you have to think mayb this player has picked up on that and doesnt think your hand is very strong so he makes the big re raise just to try and take it away. I really dont think he would re raise a set to 50K...BUT if he puts you on QQ KK AA..then his big re raise makes sense because he would figure hes getting action from those big pairs...fuck this is really tough.....ummm...i really cant come up with an answer because i wasnt at the table and wasnt able to see how the opponent was playing or your image at this table...but based on the knowledge of just the hand i think you can re raise all in here.....but hey im jus a donkey, thought id throw some input in.
  20. 1.21Gigawatts 1.21Gigawatts is offline

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 8:36pm) in reply to phatcat

    fold equity?? what the hell do you want him to fold?
  21. phatcat phatcat is offline

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 8:43pm) in reply to 1.21Gigawatts

    what i mean is do you think there are any hands in his range he's going to commit that much of his stack with and then fold(which would be the only hands that we would be ahead of)? im not saying i want him to.
    444 11
    Thread Starter
  22. FoNZ87 FoNZ87 is offline

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 8:43pm) in reply to 1.21Gigawatts

    i really want to know phatcat what you think he thinks you have in this hand.
  23. FoNZ87 FoNZ87 is offline

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 8:45pm) in reply to FoNZ87

    i dont think he has a set because i think the re raise is quite large, i dont think he has AA or KK because as you said 'most' players would repop pre...so that leaves you with him making a play on you because he thinks you are weak. yes? no?

    im really stuck on this hand jesus

    EDIT: If he is bluffing this is the perfect bluff because as you said, it seems as though there is no fold equity. so if hes bluffing / weaker hand / lower pair this raise would make sense because he wants you to think hes committing himself but really he isnt. i just really dont think he re raises this much with a set i think you are ahead here im shovin.

    i hate this hand so much such a tough spot
  24. 1.21Gigawatts 1.21Gigawatts is offline

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 8:57pm) in reply to phatcat

    Most bluffs give off the illusion of zero fold equity.
  25. Jovial Gent Jovial Gent is offline

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    Sep 25th, 2007 (9/25/2007 9:04pm) in reply to ActionJeff

    YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.

    Welcome back Jeff.
     11
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