seems to be a easy fold...
don't think the villian is is capble of cold 4betting light or anything less than AQ+ TT+ here..
I use to like calling in this spot. ....but now i would either shove or fold...

If you haven't been 3-betting often then I would flat his initial raise. I don't want my first 3-bet to be with the bottom of my value range because it puts us in this difficult spot when he 4-bets. Also, there are several stacks behind you that could squeeze light if you flat, which would give you more info about the villain's hand strength before you need to commit alot of chips.

If you have been having preflop raising wars with him then I would be ok with 3-betting, but it would be to 5-bet not to fold. If he has been active and is aware of his image he could definitely be 4betting light here because he expects you to 3bet a wider range. 3bet/folding JJ turns a hand that crushes his opening range into a bluff.

For those reasons, I think I would flat the initial open and play against him in position if you have a tight image, and 3bet to 5bet if you have been battling each other repeatedly.

tough spot.

u can def just call his raise pre and hope some1 behind u 3bets so u can get it in vs. a smaller stack..

with the way u played it, its real tough. u cant really just call; u gotta fold or shove. i think folding is correct play. as said above, im worried about how much he raised- it says KK, QQ, or AK. and with the amount of chips u have, there is no reason to get involved with the other big stack at this point.

if he had raised smaller; like 2.5X or so, he could have a bluff here much more often.

yea i'm in the flat pre camp. as played seems like a easy fold to me.

and 3b/f is def still a fine line to take there a lot of the time but almost 100 bb deep effective it's jacks i dunno small ball imo.

 

Originally Posted by grandmamoneybags

yea i'm in the flat pre camp. as played seems like a easy fold to me.

and 3b/f is def still a fine line to take there a lot of the time but almost 100 bb deep effective it's jacks i dunno small ball imo.

Yeah I don't really know if 3b/fold is bad because worse hands could definitely still call, but without any history I would rather just flat JJ (instead of 3betting) because its such a strong hand and if this is our first 3bet its just going to overrep it because we have the bottom end of the exact range we are representing. I think in this spot, this deep, there is more value in flatting and playing a pot in position.

Also not sure why some of the other posts are assuming that villains 4bet sizing varies whether he is bluffing or not. Don't know if I can really get behind the "well if he had 2.5xed he could easily be bluffing but since its bigger he has a hand" line and just assume villain is going to drastically vary his sizing based on hand strength. Would be nice if he does though.

I am folding here... there is no reason to get it in here, and flatting seems bad too...

 

Originally Posted by tyson219

I like your posts in this thread.

Regarding the 4-bet size, for me the issue isn't about whether a 4x means bluffing/value betting. My problem is it narrows the hero's options. With a normal 4-bet here, flatting IP would be an option. But the 4x makes is so that hero's only option is to shove or fold. Shoving 100bbs is marginal at best, so folding is definitely a better option.

I see your point about not 3-betting if we intend to fold to a 4-bet. However, if villain is active, his range could be very wide and 3-betting for value while in position is +EV against this type of player. Villain mucked up the play with a non-standard 4-bet size, which cant be expected (unless that had been his standard 4-bet sizing). So in hindsight, given the way the hand played out, flatting would have been better. But without the advantage of hindsight, I can't imagine not 3-betting with JJ in position 100bbs deep against an aggro villain.

With respect to post-flop play, what type of flop texture are we happy with against this type of villain? He could be raising such a wide range that any overcards are scare cards and a lot of low flops are scary as well since he could easily have 2 pair, or pair+draw type hands.

Yeah I understand what you meant about the 4bet sizing, I was referring more to someone else who said something about he will be bluffing more if his sizing is smaller.

I agree that 3betting JJ for value is +EV here, but I just personally don't feel too comfortable with it if we don't have history. I feel like JJ is towards the bottom of the range that he is going to perceive us to 3bet for value and that we are going to narrow our range significantly for the villain. I think 100bbs deep, if he flats our 3-bet it is going to be alot easier for him to play against us than it would be if we had just flatted.

Also, this deep, we are still going to be faced with the problem of not wanting to get it in on a lot of flop textures. If we were shorter, then we could plan to get it in on the majority of flops, but since we are so deep its still going to be tough to get all-in.

I also think that with these stacks he is going to be flatting our 3bet with a relatively wide range. This is another reason that most flops are still going to suck for us, but if we 3bet we will just be having to make difficult decisions in a bigger pot. IMO 3-betting narrows our range much more for him, than it narrows his range for us.

I would like a 3-bet much better if we had already 3bet him at least once recently, so he didn't automatically assume our range is about JJ+,AK. But without history I think he is going to play pretty perfectly against us postflop, and he is going to flat a wide enough range that he can put us in difficult spots.

Thats my .02

 

Originally Posted by opgonbad

6 smaller stacks to pick on later why get into a battle with him? I believe your deep enough to flat and set mine here, maybe seat 6 pushes and you get heads up with smaller stack or it will help you define seat 7 hand when he calls seat 6 push. So flat and use seat 6 as a blocker. Correct me if im out of line guys. sorry this is how i would have played it pre. easy fold with the 40k bet

i dont like flat calling here bc what if the flop comes small cards and hes got aces, kings, or queens? i prefer 3 betting small and planning on folding to a 4 bet.