This is day 2 of the mini ftops, we are already ITM and there is 125 people left in the tourny.

Villain was pretty active, he 3 bet quite a bit pre flop but didn't have many showdowns. So his range wasn't clear to me ATM. A couple hands ago I three bet an UTG raiser and Villain flat called. UTG ended up taking the hand without showdown, but the reason I mention this is because he was begining to play more pots with me. My image at the table was pretty tight. I wasn't playing many hands, I did 4 bet just once but it was folded preflop. Mind you he was not involved in the hand.

Basically I would like to know what ranges are we assigning villain? And what would you do here?

Let's keep in mind this is a good structure and we are fairly deep in stacks sizes here.

Full Tilt Poker Game #29192835849: MiniFTOPS Event #40 (2-Day) (209629767), Table 196 - 1000/2000 Ante 250 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:48:04 ET - 2011/03/20
Seat 1: Armando2833 (218,271)
Seat 2: I The King I (VILLAIN) (309,052)
Seat 3: donkeyslayer84 (478,088)
Seat 4: pedobear91 (119,987)
Seat 5: mzungu (104,539)
Seat 6: JMaryN (115,875)
Armando2833 antes 250
I The King I antes 250
donkeyslayer84 antes 250
pedobear91 antes 250
mzungu antes 250
JMaryN antes 250
mzungu posts the small blind of 1,000
JMaryN posts the big blind of 2,000
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Armando2833 [Qs Qd]
Armando2833 raises to 5,000
I The King I has 15 seconds left to act
I The King I raises to 12,000
donkeyslayer84 folds
pedobear91 folds
mzungu has 15 seconds left to act
mzungu folds
JMaryN folds
Armando2833 has 15 seconds left to act
Armando2833 raises to 28,999
I The King I has 15 seconds left to act
I The King I has requested TIME
I The King I raises to 66,666
Armando2833 has 15 seconds left to act
Armando2833 has requested TIME
WWYD??????????

completely depends on the player. If his average buy in is low it's very unlikely that he would be risking his stack deep in a major tournament without a monster and he probly has KK or AA. On the other hand, if villain is accustomed to play mid and high stakes MTTs he could be making this play with hands as weak as AJs or 88 especially if he thinks you are weak/scared. of course the key word there is COULD, it is still more likely that he has a monster than a hand you have dominated.

If we were to eliminate table image as a factor I would definitely fold and live to play another day, but you may have a harder time accumulating chips once the players at your table see that you are willing to make a significant 4bet and then fold. If they no longer respect your 4bets, they sure as shit dont respect your 3bets. Of course this could turn out huge for you if you pick up KK or AA a few minutes later.

At the end of the day, I'd say fold. You'll still have 90 + BBs left and plenty of time to make a final table run

of course id be pissed as shit and think that I probably just folded to AK or TT but thats better than being pissed because you shoved and got KOd by rockets

either 4 bet to 6bet or flat the 3bet initially

if your image is tight (as you said it was), it might be better to flat to keep in all his air cuz he's never gonna expect you to 6bet light and 4b/folding is just retarded

Yeah 4 bet folding definitely feels like the worst line to take here. Kind of a sick spot. Just to confirm is this a 6 max event? Would certainly change the perceived value of our queens. Considering how deep we are this is a spot where with no reads i definitely like flatting the 3 bet preflop. Certainly not looking to 4 bet/fold and turn QQ into a bluff. We can disguise the size of our hand in a big way as i don't think the villain is ever giving us credit for a hand as strong as QQ when we flat his 3 bet. Also enables us to keep the pot under control until we're comfortable getting it in. However its interesting to hear you saying about the earlier hand where he cold called your 3 bet of an UTG raiser? Details of this hand could be kinda important. If he is cold calling 3 bets behind and then folding to the UTG player it seems like he might be playing a bit spewy...i mean we could usually reasonably expect a cold call of your 3 bet to be a pretty strong hand? This might make me way more comfortable to 6 bet jam and get it in with QQ in a 6 handed game.......

4 bet a little smaller. 25kish is probably best. As played I get in QQ+ AK since you said he'd been active. dont ever 4 bet fold here. 6 bet shove as played or flatting the initial 3 bet is fine too if you don't feel comfortable getting in queens this deep.

He´s not a random, Supernova Elite on stars and Plays EPTs etc.
I like to get it in here since i think the opponent has some kind of air in his range too...
If you 4 bet him you have to go with it since you would turn your queens into a bluff...

Thanks for the replies fellas.. Main reason I posted this hand is cause I thought of all the different way I could have played it. At the end of the day I went with my read and gut and below is the out come. I never planned on shutting down once I 4 bet in this spot fwiw. I knew this player was aggro and was very active. I know I got UL but I just wanted to hear some opinions.

Full Tilt Poker Game #29192835849: MiniFTOPS Event #40 (2-Day) (209629767), Table 196 - 1000/2000 Ante 250 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:48:04 ET - 2011/03/20
Seat 1: Armando2833 (218,271)
Seat 2: I The King I (309,052)
Seat 3: donkeyslayer84 (478,088)
Seat 4: pedobear91 (119,987)
Seat 5: mzungu (104,539)
Seat 6: JMaryN (115,875)
Armando2833 antes 250
I The King I antes 250
donkeyslayer84 antes 250
pedobear91 antes 250
mzungu antes 250
JMaryN antes 250
mzungu posts the small blind of 1,000
JMaryN posts the big blind of 2,000
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Armando2833 [Qs Qd]
Armando2833 raises to 5,000
I The King I has 15 seconds left to act
I The King I raises to 12,000
donkeyslayer84 folds
pedobear91 folds
mzungu has 15 seconds left to act
mzungu folds
JMaryN folds
Armando2833 has 15 seconds left to act
Armando2833 raises to 28,999
I The King I has 15 seconds left to act
I The King I has requested TIME
I The King I raises to 66,666
Armando2833 has 15 seconds left to act
Armando2833 has requested TIME
Armando2833 raises to 218,021, and is all in
I The King I calls 151,355
Armando2833 shows [Qs Qd]
I The King I shows [Ac Kd]
*** FLOP *** [5s 4h Jc]
*** TURN *** [5s 4h Jc] [2d]
*** RIVER *** [5s 4h Jc 2d] [Kc]
Armando2833 shows a pair of Queens
I The King I shows a pair of Kings
I The King I wins the pot (440,542) with a pair of Kings
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 440,542 | Rake 0
Board: [5s 4h Jc 2d Kc]
Seat 1: Armando2833 showed [Qs Qd] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 2: I The King I showed [Ac Kd] and won (440,542) with a pair of Kings
Seat 3: donkeyslayer84 folded before the Flop
Seat 4: pedobear91 (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: mzungu (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: JMaryN (big blind) folded before the Flop

Once again thanks for those who wrote on here and GL at the tables!

vwp very gross river.

if ur 4betting it should be because ur inducing to get it in, like lagrat said id make it smaller to give him the illusion of folding equity to keep worse hands of his in. cant ever fathom folding qq pf in 6max no matter how deep, but depending on how comfortable you are with postflop play, and being 100+ bbs deep i dont see anything wrong with flatting the 3b for pot control. getting it in as u did is clearly not a leak, its just a high variance spot that u might not wanna take with such a deep structure and having already played 2 days to get here. ul tho gg

 

Originally Posted by GrimeRat420

if ur 4betting it should be because ur inducing to get it in, like lagrat said id make it smaller to give him the illusion of folding equity to keep worse hands of his in. cant ever fathom folding qq pf in 6max no matter how deep, but depending on how comfortable you are with postflop play, and being 100+ bbs deep i dont see anything wrong with flatting the 3b for pot control. getting it in as u did is clearly not a leak, its just a high variance spot that u might not wanna take with such a deep structure and having already played 2 days to get here. ul tho gg

really like this especially the bolded part, more iv thought about this hand more iv realise i am prob 4 betting to 6 bet cram everytym, but mayb flattin the 3 bet in certain spots like this (structure/event) cud b beneficial

 

Originally Posted by Pops28

GrimeRat420- Yes I agree it was a high variance spot. I'm glad you mentioned that it's not a leak. Thanks for the response.

For those who say flat his 3 bet. How would you play this hand post flop against villain. Also, don't you think the stacks are going in regardless? Given his level of aggressiveness and knowing that i'm disciplined and capable of folding a big hand.

Just thought I bring that up for discussion as well.

Say I check raise flop. Don't we think Villain will repop me or even flat in position to steal put in me an odd spot in later streets?

I'm flatting the 3bet more often than im 4bet/6betting and if I'm going with the passive line I will keep it that way postflop and NOT c/r but just c/c, potcontrol + if he's aggro he will prolly not just cbet and then simply give up OTT

Edan, You think he folds turn when he picks up a gutshot with his two overs?

Fenway, board texture is above. I posted results. That's why I ask. I know alot has to do with table dynamics and situation. But I'm referrering to this particualr situation.

wait i thought you said you 6bet? are you saying if you flatted and the board comes J54 rainbow? check/call is probably best, could c/r but kind of overreps your hand on a dry board like that---theres not a ton of draws you could be semibluffing with. villain is also aggressive and will barrel down

or are you saying if the board comes A3A, I vaguely remember you talking about that but I didn't really understand. that's probably a c/c as well.

also i think another important thing to point out with the preflop decision is that while villain has gotten into 3b/4b wars with other people, if OP is really tight, villain is somewhat less likely to spaz off like he might against other heroes. if we've already been battling preflop somewhat, this is a clear 4b/6b, but given OP's situation flatting the 3b could be slightly better although it's impossible to say that 6betting qq in a 6 max game against an aggressive villain could ever be bad

Thanks for the help/advice P5'ers.