22 left in the $22 + R on Stars...
I'm slightly shortstacked, tournament has a chip average of 50k. I'm looking for a big hand to double up and propel me to a potential top 3 finish.
J9SUITED had been very LAG, raising from the cutoff and button with any 2 cards and betting the pot as a continuation bet. As predicted he raised, and I just called with QQ. My logic is that if I reraise for 20k more, he insta-mucks. However, if I just call and check to him i have a 75% chance of doubling up on his continuation bet/bluff.
How terrible of a play is this? Did I just get pretty unlucky? I realize now that I should have just added the 12k from the blinds and raise to my stack but I was curious. Hand posted below.
pokerstars Game #7552067593: Tournament #38437253, $50+$5 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIV (1500/3000) - 2006/12/22 - 03:50:33 (ET)
Table '38437253 17' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: PTMT1 (29734 in chips)
Seat 2: Guguita (32474 in chips)
Seat 3: kauli (16641 in chips)
Seat 4: jofay (46430 in chips)
Seat 5: J9SUITED (95788 in chips)
Seat 6: jotan83 (14118 in chips)
Seat 7: GoMukYaSelf (28296 in chips)
Seat 8: Arthur Wang (59322 in chips)
Seat 9: GeVance (105172 in chips)
PTMT1: posts the ante 150
Guguita: posts the ante 150
kauli: posts the ante 150
jofay: posts the ante 150
J9SUITED: posts the ante 150
jotan83: posts the ante 150
GoMukYaSelf: posts the ante 150
Arthur Wang: posts the ante 150
GeVance: posts the ante 150
GoMukYaSelf: posts small blind 1500
Arthur Wang: posts big blind 3000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to GoMukYaSelf [Qs Qd]
J9SUITED: raises 4777 to 7777
GoMukYaSelf: calls 6277
Arthur Wang: folds
*** FLOP *** [5d Ac Kc]
*** TURN *** [5d Ac Kc] [Kh]
J9SUITED: bets 3000
GoMukYaSelf: raises 6000 to 9000
J9SUITED: calls 6000
*** RIVER *** [5d Ac Kc Kh] [9c]
jofay said, "oh oh"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GoMukYaSelf: shows [Qs Qd] (two pair, Kings and Queens)
J9SUITED: shows [Ad 2h] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
GoMukYaSelf said, "f me"
J9SUITED collected 37904 from pot
GoMukYaSelf said, "****"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 37904 | Rake 0
Board [5d Ac Kc Kh 9c]
Seat 1: PTMT1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Guguita folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: kauli folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: jofay folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: J9SUITED showed [Ad 2h] and won (37904) with two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 6: jotan83 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: GoMukYaSelf (small blind) showed [Qs Qd] and lost with two pair, Kings and Queens
Seat 8: Arthur Wang (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: GeVance folded before Flop (didn't bet)
I understand why you smooth call here, but passing up on a nearly sure shot at a 40 percent increase to your stack is probably not the best idea. I also think the raise on turn lacks value. He doesnt call you with a hand you can beat, but is highly unlikely to fold a hand that does have you beat. It's not as if you have no showdown value here.
I might think about smooth calling here w/AA, then check raising all in on pretty much any flop, but def not w/ QQ. You have 28k and theres 13.6k out there, just throw ur chips in the middle and hope he calls.
If you think he's likely to fold then push pre flop. If not your smooth call could have worked had an ace/king not come on the flop. Your pre flop play wasn't that bad you just got unfortunate to get such a crappy flop for your hand.
you dont ever ever ever flat call with queens out of position to only a 2.5 times the blind raise. YOU RERAISE THIS. every time. flat calling here is always bad. only with aces would i maybe approve of it. your turn raise was pathetic. wont have happened if you had raised
this is bad, but im the worst tourney player ever (this can be confirmed by n82)
personally, i like the flat call and the strategy you had laid out for the hand
but i think when the flop came up with an A and a K, and he checked, that should have set off a red flag that he might have the A since he didnt bet for a change
atleast thats how i would have seen it
Personally, when my M is 5, any hand I choose to play, I'm choosing to play it for all my chips. I think I'm pushing pre-flop here every time and adding 40% to my stack without a fuss. I'm hoping he calls, but I definitely don't want to make a nasty decision as to what to do short-stacked on an AKx flop.
I understand your thinking. I just don't think your stack is deep enough to think that way.
Actually, I dont understand the question unless you specify the correct touramnet. :)
pokerstars Game #7552067593: Tournament #38437253, $50+$5 Hold'em No Limit -
to answer, obvious you werent getting away from your hand here in your head when an A and/or a K came, you were going to play for all your chips, as you stated,
I think you either should have:
a) push preflop
b) consider folding on the flop if a A/K came, considering his previous play he could easily been raising here with any Ace.
ps i hate spelling
I think if you were going to try and make any move by raising on the turn you definitely should have pushed all in or at least bet the pot considering the other king came. The only problem is he has a high stack so even if he did have an ace he might call you anyways being the LAG player he is. The best thing would have been to take the pot down preflop. With a flop of ace and king, i'm throwing my ladies out, it sucks but you do what you gotta do to stay in.
I think Grapsfan said it right. You didn't have the chips to get fancy. No matter what happens on the flop, you're going to have a hard time dumping the hand vs a player you've already labeled LAG.
I get my chips in there preflop and I'm content with adding 40% to my stack if he doesn't call, and risking the 3 to 1 favorite if he does.
If you had more chips, then it's ok to get creative. In that situation, however, I think pushing was the best option.
As always, your analysis is right on track. Definitely made me think about shortstacked tournament strategy... one of those "mulligan" moments I guess.
I think my biggest problem (other than not re-raising pre-flop) is that once I called, I had no exit strategy. When the flop came with an A and a K, I wasn't willing to fold to a continuation bet, but I also probably would have folded before going broke. The comment about the turn check raise only building up the pot against hands that have me beat was accurate as well.
Thanks again for the feedback.
i had a very similiar situation happen to me while i was being ghosted by my mentor. I was in the big blind with about 35k chips and the bb was 2000. Due to a player elimination on full tilt i was the lone blind, no small blind. The player on the button made it 6000 to go and i had KK. I waited and shoved all in he had about 25k starting the hand. My mentor told me this was a rare case where i smooth call kings and outplay im on the flop. He said shoving all in was fine, the extra chips really helpd my stack but smooth calling would have gotten me more value, even a min raise would have worked he claimed. I am wondering what you guys think about smooth calling kk in his or my situation, queens is risky and AA is definately easier to do it with, but what about kings?
Just push against this idiot. He'll call with a wide range of junk preflop. In my experience with him he is pretty awful.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the consensus is that in my case, the only hand I should smooth call the raise with is AA
In your case, I would definitely just smooth call. Any raise will essentially commit you to the pot and a min raise will give you no information whatsoever since he will have 4-1 pot odds (I think) and will call with any hand that justified the raise in the first place.
A tough spot, but this is definitely a hand where the assumed risk is worth it IMHO.
You realize your mistake. One thing I haven't seen brought up (unless I missed it in my speed-reading), you may have been able to get him off the hand by moving all-in immediately after the flop. Even if you hadn't, this is the better play than what you did--betting big at the end of the hand.
The reason I think this, is you said this player had been aggressive toward the blinds and consistent with his continuation bets. If he had A-with a good kicker, now would be his chance to make his usual move, get called by someone thinking he was shoving again (you) and put you out. This type of player thrives when he actually hits a hand. His check therefor, is very telling.
You called him pre-flop. This slowed him down and got him thinking. I think even though he hit his ace, he was still looking for information after the flop since you had shown strength. His check, to me, signaled weakness. When you then checked as well, you let him know that you likely did not have an ace. I think an all-in here would have been very tough for him to call and wins you the pot.
After the flop was the only time he showed weakness in the hand. (Well he did on the river as well, but at that point he had so much in he was probably calling any bet from you.)
As you've recognized, a pre-flop re-raise probably wins the pot. I'd say your last chance to win it, was right after the flop. Granted you may have lost more right there as well, but it would be a better move than what you ultimately ended up doing and would have allowed you one more bullet at a loose player who suddenly would have been feeling the heat.
ROFLMAO at anyone thinking that J9 Suited is gonna lay this down after he flops top pair. You guys obviously haven't played much with this clown. Get it in preflop and watch him call off with junk all the time.
Just one other thought, because it's something that helps me when a move fails.
You smooth-called with QQ hoping the flop would not have any overcards, he would make a continuation bet and you would crush him. When both an A and a K were flopped, and then he did not make a continuation bet, this is a situation where it helps me to remind myself, OK, my original plan did not work out, I either need a new approach that will work, or I need to get out of this completely.
I think stepping back like this would have helped you avoid that late re-raise.
I think it's funny when people play K-x suited, looking to hit a flush. They pair their K miss the flush and then just keep rolling with it, even though this was not their original motivation for playing the hand. Not that you would do this, but just to give an example of mindset.
Just a thought that has helped me.