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  1. pokerbiasm pokerbiasm is offline

    Beverwijk
    Netherlands

    Posts: 97
    Joined: Oct 10

    Jun 6th, 2012 (6/6/2012 2:27am)

    big 11 deep

    pokerStarshand #81552740141: Toernooi #576010492, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXXIX (9000/18000) - 06/06/2012 3:17:08 CET [05/06/2012 21:17:08 ET]
    Tafel '576010492 191' 9-max Plaats #5 is de button
    Plaats 1: $3v3nK (439693 in chips)
    Plaats 2: UrosZupan (941232 in chips)
    Plaats 3: Bectolo4 (290070 in chips)
    Plaats 4: Afcaantje84 (603121 in chips)
    Plaats 5: Nepomucene (783165 in chips)
    Plaats 6: allprowi (1023004 in chips)
    Plaats 7: ded90888 (593448 in chips)
    Plaats 8: Pokerbiasm11 (826814 in chips)
    Plaats 9: Robabatt (388842 in chips)
    $3v3nK: zet de ante 2250
    UrosZupan: zet de ante 2250
    Bectolo4: zet de ante 2250
    Afcaantje84: zet de ante 2250
    Nepomucene: zet de ante 2250
    allprowi: zet de ante 2250
    ded90888: zet de ante 2250
    Pokerbiasm11: zet de ante 2250
    Robabatt: zet de ante 2250
    allprowi: zet small blind 9000
    ded90888: zet big blind 18000
    *** GESLOTEN KAARTEN ***
    Gedeeld aan Pokerbiasm11 [Kd Qd]
    Pokerbiasm11: raiset 19800 naar 37800
    Robabatt: foldt
    $3v3nK: foldt
    UrosZupan: foldt
    Bectolo4: foldt
    Afcaantje84: foldt
    Nepomucene: foldt
    allprowi: callt 28800
    ded90888: foldt
    *** FLOP *** [4d Ad Qs]
    allprowi: checkt
    Pokerbiasm11: bet 47817
    allprowi: callt 47817
    *** TURN *** [4d Ad Qs] [9h]
    allprowi: checkt
    Pokerbiasm11: bet 87983
    allprowi: raiset 103379 naar 191362
    Pokerbiasm11: raiset 547585 naar 738947 en is all-in
    allprowi: callt 547585
    *** RIVER *** [4d Ad Qs 9h] [Qc]
    *** SHOWDOWN ***
    allprowi: toont [4s 4c] (een full house, Vieren over Vrouwen)
    Pokerbiasm11: toont [Kd Qd] (three of a kind, Vrouwen)
    allprowi won 1687378 van pot
    Pokerbiasm11 is op de 33e plaats in het toernooi geëindigd en heeft $173.92 ontvangen.
    Edited By: pokerbiasm Jun 6th, 2012 at 02:35 AM
     
  2. RedIceRap RedIceRap is offline Redirator

    Germany

    Posts: 2,093
    Joined: Jun 10

    Jun 6th, 2012 (6/6/2012 4:06am) in reply to pokerbiasm

    Yeah, you did. First of all let's look at the flop structure. You're opponent could have a gutshot, a flush draw or QJs/QTs. Those are the hands that you want to bet the flop against. He could have Ax hands, which aces doesn't really matter since an A with no kicker beats you. The only important thing is that it won't be too many combinations. Now there are the pocket pairs and suited connectors. I think betting against pocket pairs which missed the flop is fine since on that typa flop most villains just decide to fold. So we won't get more value anyway, we just give him a chance to hit his 2outer. Another good reason for betting the flop is because we prolly always bet that flop if we miss, and we actually get value from worse on the flop. So I like betting this flop.

    The turn didn't change much unless he has 99, TJs and picked up a couple of more outs, or has A9s which again doesn't change much since he beats us anyway. There's pretty much no point at all to bet the turn, imo. We turn our hand in a complete bluff if we do that. He c/c the flop and c/r the turn after you clearly showed strength by two barreling. I would check behind the turn, but if I decide to bet this becomes an easy fold to resistance here. You simply won't be able to say what hands he would play this way that are behind of your hand/that are going to fold to your shove.

    1. After checking behind the turn you show weakness (just like you have 55-88 or similar hands and are just giving up)! You will get worse hands to bluff you on the river and can make a 'hero call'. It's a hero call because of the A on the flop, but most of the time it's a pretty easy bluff catch against randoms.

    2. You control the pot. You have a medium strength hand which can turn to a monster on the river. You prolly won't fold out an ace on the turn and semi-bluffing turns is 'dangerous', especially with a rather bad draw and also especially because even if you hit your Q he will show up with a set or AQ a decent amount of time, that's why you want to keep the pot small here and decide if you call or fold his value bet on the river.

    So let's say I check behind the turn and the river is the Q. he certainly will bet his hand on the river after our check behind on the turn. On that river we're scared of 44, 99 and AQ. And the only hand that will pay us off are QJs/QTs, maybe also offsuit, depends on villain's style. Besides complete bluffs which will fold to a raise anyway there are prolly no other hands (with showdown value) that will bet the river for value (and call a raise). So even on that nice river I'm personally in call mode.

    There are other good players who will say different things to you, but their lines prolly match to their overall styles. And since you post the hand here and had no real plan on the turn you should check behind that turn and control the potsize.

    Btw, consider using a HUD, it might help you with some decisions, like 'Thin turn value bet VS pot control check behind'. If you can put enough hands that you beat in his range a turn bet could be profitable. But your 3bet shove on the turn is nonsense and way too fancy.
    Edited By: RedIceRap Jun 6th, 2012 at 04:15 AM
     207 1
  3. Sagacious Man Sagacious Man is offline

    Australia

    Posts: 891
    Joined: Oct 10

    Jun 6th, 2012 (6/6/2012 7:42am) in reply to RedIceRap

    You accomplish nothing by shoving on the turn except push out worse hands and scare away his bluffs. You have a big stack for deep in this event. Just call the turn and re-evaluate river is going to be a better play.
  4. Sagacious Man Sagacious Man is offline

    Australia

    Posts: 891
    Joined: Oct 10

    Jun 6th, 2012 (6/6/2012 7:48am) in reply to Sagacious Man

    I am guessing you are shoving because you like your gutshot and flushdraw, not because you think your Q is good. But there is only 1 card to come so just flat, there is no point shoving as a semi-bluff because he probably does not have a check-raise bluff range and will call 100% of the time.
  5. pokerbiasm pokerbiasm is offline

    Beverwijk
    Netherlands

    Posts: 97
    Joined: Oct 10

    Jun 6th, 2012 (6/6/2012 11:05am) in reply to Sagacious Man

    i was shoving to get rid of an ace, i putted him on Ax looking for info and thats why i shoved didn't want to call and miss on the river, set didn't come to mind as i didn't put much time in it to think about it. I've been busting around these positions quite often lately that's why i posted this hand. Maybe its time to down the agression a bit at these stages. Thanks for the replies, helps me a lot to up my game for it definetly needs some improvement.
     
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