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Difficult decision with full house facing huge overbet

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  1. BigMac1082 BigMac1082 is offline

    Champaign, IL
    United States

    Posts: 195
    Joined: Apr 05

    Apr 9th, 2006 (4/9/2006 5:45pm)

    The bettor had been passive preflop but very aggressive after the flop. I thought about it for a long time before making my move. What would you do and why?

    Seat 2: BigMac1082 ( $214.05 )
    Seat 4: JUST_FRED ( $62.11 )
    Seat 1: snapshot1112 ( $201.69 )
    Seat 5: DMC83 ( $91.25 )
    Seat 3: Gg_n00b_Gg ( $114.75 )
    Seat 6: YekermoSew ( $92 )
    JUST_FRED posts small blind [$0.50].
    DMC83 posts big blind [$1].
    ** Dealing down cards **
    Dealt to BigMac1082 [ 7d 7h ]
    YekermoSew folds.
    snapshot1112 calls [$1].
    BigMac1082 calls [$1].
    Gg_n00b_Gg folds.
    JUST_FRED calls [$0.50].
    DMC83 checks.
    ** Dealing Flop ** [ Qs, Td, 7s ]
    JUST_FRED checks.
    DMC83 checks.
    snapshot1112 bets [$1].
    BigMac1082 raises [$5].
    JUST_FRED folds.
    DMC83 folds.
    snapshot1112 calls [$4].
    ** Dealing Turn ** [ Jc ]
    snapshot1112 checks.
    BigMac1082 bets [$10].
    snapshot1112 calls [$10].
    ** Dealing River ** [ Qc ]
    snapshot1112 is all-In [$185.69]
  2. timzc1 timzc1 is offline

    Vancouver
    Canada

    Posts: 2,262
    Joined: Jan 06

    Apr 9th, 2006 (4/9/2006 6:37pm) in reply to BigMac1082

    I am *no where near* an expert on cash no limit...

    but: what really GOOD hand is played like this? If he does have a bigger boat, why play it like this? He is hoping you put him on BS and so call him with a wide range of good but not great hands? Sounds too risky that you fold (far to risky).

    I say he has a str8 (?) and is hoping you call say three q's (?)

    that's my best guess: so I say your little boat is a reasonably easy CALL.

    --tc
  3. 11 11 11 11 is offline

    Posts: 167
    Joined: Feb 06

    Apr 9th, 2006 (4/9/2006 11:13pm) in reply to BigMac1082

    I dont know if he will check call on the flop/turn with 2 pair...QJ.....
  4. chillinmcm chillinmcm is offline

    Toronto
    Canada

    Posts: 9
    Joined: Mar 06

    Apr 9th, 2006 (4/9/2006 11:43pm) in reply to BigMac1082

    easy call, if he has QJ well that unfortunate
  5. Bizzz Bizzz is offline

    Philadelphia, PA
    United States

    Posts: 579
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    Apr 10th, 2006 (4/10/2006 2:39am) in reply to BigMac1082

    His betting pattern reeks of 89 for a turned straight. I would probably lean toward calling, although you need more info about his play. Is he normally passive? Is he an idiot? Overaggressive? Had he overbet before?
  6. Gowon Gowon is offline

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    Apr 10th, 2006 (4/10/2006 3:40am) in reply to Bizzz

    I think I'd lean towards a fold here, truthfully... it depends though, at that limit players aren't always all that tricky. I think Q-J, Q-10 and 10-10 are all realistic possibilities, that weak lead on the flop then calling and then checking/calling the turn and pushing the river makes me think that's something besides 8-9. I might miss out on a good opportunity for a double-up here, but I think I'd fold 7-7 in that spot, there's nothing I beat besides 8-9 or a complete bluff as I doubt he'd play K-Q or any other queen the same way.
  7. EssentialOne EssentialOne is offline

    Posts: 70
    Joined: Apr 06

    Apr 10th, 2006 (4/10/2006 4:31am) in reply to BigMac1082

    Keeping in mind he was passive pre and aggressive post....

    His possible holdings:

    TT, JJ - unless he is ULTRA passive this is not likely, and even if he did have one of these, an aggressive player post-flop definetely should have raised the turn.

    QT - More likely than the TT but again, is this the type of player that is going min-bet the two pair and then proceed to cold-call a raise on the flop and then cold call a bet on the turn after a scare card? If he was aggressive post-flop he should have raised the turn for sure. Plus why would he bet so much on the river with such a great hand...wouldn't he want to get called by worse hands??

    QJ - I think this is a little more likely than the QT...he min-bets his top pair, calls the raise, and then hits his two pair on the turn, after which he proceeds to simply call with it hoping to win more on the river. Still though, any good player shold be raising this turn on such a scary board. And again, why wold he bet so much on the river w the nuts?

    89 - very possible given the betting patterns

    any two spades - also possible given the flop and turn betting patterns...many players will make a river bet after a missed draw.

    AK - much like the TT and JJ, if he is really passive pre this is a possibility

    KQ, AQ, (maybe Q-lower) - possible given the flop and turn betting patters but depends on if you think this is the guy of guy who sees trips on the river and thinks he's golden.

    In the end, it depends on if you think this is the kind of guy who is going to slowplay a two pair that he shouldn't be slowplaying at all. Less experienced players do this and it's obv not out of the question. With such a large overbet on the river and you only having invested $16, I might fold and wait for a better opportunity even though you might very well have the best hand.
  8. BigMac1082 BigMac1082 is offline

    Champaign, IL
    United States

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    Apr 10th, 2006 (4/10/2006 5:16am) in reply to BigMac1082

    Well I thought about it for a really long time. Almost timed out. Then I called and he had Q10. Then i closed all my tables to avoid tilting away any more money.
    Thread Starter
  9. kinghill kinghill is offline

    Delray Beach, FL
    United States

    Posts: 1,627
    Joined: Jul 05

    Apr 10th, 2006 (4/10/2006 7:48am) in reply to BigMac1082

    Wow. Strange way to play QT imho. I too would have called.

    Tough one, probably a good move getting away from the tables for a bit.
  10. ferrengi ferrengi is offline

    Brooklyn, NY
    United States

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    Apr 11th, 2006 (4/11/2006 12:24am) in reply to BigMac1082

    I don't know if I would've folded here but I do think his betting pattern contained a tell.
    Lots of low limit players like to slowplay their good hands thinking the are monsters are ignoring the risks involved in doing this. His betting pattern on the flop and turn suggests he is strong and thinks he has the best hand. Now, normally such a big overbet on the river could mean a busted draw and your opponent is making a last ditch effort to win the pot. But, his actions on the flop and turn should tell you that this is not the case here. He is going out of his way to represent a bluff and there is a lot of evidence to suggest he is very strong. This is why I think his betting pattern contained a tell.

    It's very easy for me to say now because I can see what he had and it is harder to think things through the heat of battle.
  11. hellydoc hellydoc is offline

    Ithaca, NY
    United States

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    Apr 11th, 2006 (4/11/2006 3:03am) in reply to BigMac1082

    tough result and i couldnt put him on QT but QJ would have seemed quite likely to me.

    1. QJ definitely something you can limp with preflop

    2. Min bet on the flop because of kicker issues, but the call because top pair

    3. Turn a little interesting I definitely dont check here but his check still gives him information.
    He could have been planning to trap here or leary of the st8. I think your bet (correct for
    sure) shows alot of strength and this is the info that he wanted without risking anything more
    than a call, or it could have threw off his plan of a check raise trap due to your strength.
    For sure he will call here though with top two pair.

    4. I think his bet on the river is a little over the top and risky for value. But if the guy is a pretty
    good player he probably had you on a set (or less likely the st8)and thought the Q filled you
    up in which case very difficult for you to get away from. the overbet on his part introduces the
    thought of buying the pot by him and could influence your decision by making his nuts seem
    less possible to you.

    but since the guy had Q T all of the above is S**T and the guy is just a donk who got lucky

    BTW good idea to stop so you dont tilt there i know some guys who would jump up two or three levels there and make that loss look small..

    Better luck next time

    Helly
  12. BigMac1082 BigMac1082 is offline

    Champaign, IL
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    Apr 11th, 2006 (4/11/2006 2:30pm) in reply to hellydoc

    If I did have the straight here, I fold almost instantly to his push. Stupid of me because my low full house is only like 1 hand better than broadway here. Wish I would've thought of that but didn't have much time.
    Thread Starter
  13. MileHighKid MileHighKid is offline

    Arvada, CO
    United States

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    Apr 11th, 2006 (4/11/2006 3:02pm) in reply to BigMac1082

    Losing your money like that with a full house is not something I'd stress too much over. Yeah, it's got to be in the back of your mind that he's got a bigger full house but he could also be on a busted flush draw as well and is trying to represent trip Q's. He could also have something like A-Q and be playing it horribly. I can't fold a hand like this unless I'm 100% sure he's got the full house and I honestly don't think I can ever say for 100% sure that he's got it. I think you make the call and take your lumps if you're beat.
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