OK playing 2/5 @ the Hard Rock Hollywood, FL, with the new normal limits (thank god) when this hand comes up.

The villain 2 to my right is a 45-ish year old who is the table captain. He has $1000 in front of him when I sit down and has flashed a large turn bluff that took down the pot already, however other than that he seems to have played solid. I've been sitting about 20 minutes and haven't played many hands, probably have about $550 in front of me.

The villain is UTG+2 and raises to $20. UTG +3 calls, I call with QcJh. BB calls. 4 to the flop. Flop comes:

89T all clubs

BB has about $100 left in front of him and shoves. Villain thinks for a little while before raising it to $260. UTG+3 folds. I have about $530 in my stack. Before I say anything else about the hand I wonder what your thoughts are and what you think the best action here might be.

clearest fold ever, someone sould have flopped the nuts or even be drawing to it!

fold pre because your cards aren't suited. pre is very bad spew, i know it's boring playing live but QJo in multi-way pots at an active table is asking for trouble.

btw as played definitely shove. I don't see why the "table captain" would raise the nuts here, he has sets, straights, and overpairs with a club much more often than flushes that have you almost drawing dead. You are almost certainly getting the right price, time to gamble.

edit: my preflop advice is better refined below, it's not that big of a deal bc most people are bad live

 

Originally Posted by Pghfan987

fold pre because your cards aren't suited. pre is very bad spew, i know it's boring playing live but QJo in multi-way pots at an active table is asking for trouble.

btw as played definitely shove. I don't see why the "table captain" would raise the nuts here, he has sets, straights, and overpairs with a club much more often than flushes that have you almost drawing dead. You are almost certainly getting the right price, time to gamble.

In a tournament I 100% agree, but in a deepstacked cash game I don't think the call pre is bad at all, esp. with the looser raiser and caller. I'd be curious for cash gamers to chime in on that one, though, as I am just making the shift from tourneys to cash.

I totally agree with you regarding the range. I don't think folding was ever really an option in my mind for more than a few seconds. I had a very hard time deciding between shoving and calling. If we think we are well ahead of his range (being mostly sets and two pair type hands, maybe a pair and overcard flush draw), then don't we lose him a lot of the time by shoving here? The side pot is going to be where the most of the money will be, and I think a shove by me will get snapped off by hands that I'm behind or have to fade, while the hands that I'm well ahead of (sets/two pairs, smaller straights) may fold. I was really torn.

 

Originally Posted by Neek

If we think we are well ahead of his range (being mostly sets and two pair type hands, maybe a pair and overcard flush draw), then don't we lose him a lot of the time by shoving here?

I am too lazy to run the numbers, but for starters even though we are ahead of his range (not waaay ahead, but ahead) I think him folding is going to be better than him calling because of the free money. And if we just call, we don't know if pairing the board kills us, a club kills us, or he is drawing dead anyway (67dd).

 

Originally Posted by stock break

call and re-evaluate. on turn, if he bets, fold. if he checks, check behind. If no club comes on turn or river, jam river, else fold your queen high flush. preflop is a fold or jam, i hate flatting with QJ off

Good lord don't do this. The pot would be $700 after the flop and we only have $250 or so behind. We probably want villain to fold to the flop jam, I can't fathom doing anything but jamming this flop.

Oh and LOL at jam pre. I can't wait until the HS forum when I don't have to read these kinds of posts.

 

Originally Posted by stock break

we are never raising, and never folding on this flop. therefore, just call

#1 why are we never raising

#2 calling with ur plan for the turn and river sounds pretty aweful

we can't raise because we have no fold equity. If you have some fear equity, maybe i can see a raise, but with 0 fear equity, we have 0 fold equity. This man is calling. We can't fold because he might not even have a flush, and if he has a small one we have outs. Therefore, just call. Check behind turn, or fold if he bets (always a flush). Then jam river if he checks it to you.

you shoved and he got there right?

rebuy sounds like theres money to be made at this table

never mind i'm trying to be nicer

 

Originally Posted by Pghfan987

fold pre because your cards aren't suited. pre is very bad spew, i know it's boring playing live but QJo in multi-way pots at an active table is asking for trouble.

btw as played definitely shove. I don't see why the "table captain" would raise the nuts here, he has sets, straights, and overpairs with a club much more often than flushes that have you almost drawing dead. You are almost certainly getting the right price, time to gamble.

i mean...if i'm playing online at a solid table, ya QJo is a fold...playing 2/5 live, doubt i'm ever folding 2 cards higher than a 6 for only one raise...

 

Originally Posted by Gags30

i mean...if i'm playing online at a solid table, ya QJo is a fold...playing 2/5 live, doubt i'm ever folding 2 cards higher than a 6 for only one raise...

Yea that's why I made another post about what I said ... you're right, I was thinking in terms of competent online players, live preflop is w/e. My advice post is obv the same.

Ship the flop

 

Originally Posted by Diggs

Ship the flop

You doing that hoping for a fold or a call?

 

Originally Posted by Neek

You doing that hoping for a fold or a call?

its just one of those spots where u should be fine with either one

he gets it in behind alot but our EV might be higher when he folds those hands

Well to finish the story, the river brought a red J, putting the straight on the board, and the villain bet $250. I briefly considered KcQx in his range before calling. He tabled a set of 10's so basically playing the straight on the board by the river and I took the side pot, while the small stack initial shover had a baby flush and took the main. Later on the villain told me that river bet could be the worst bet he's ever made.

It was just one of those spots where I felt like every option was wrong, and I've been trying to analyze it and figure out the optimal way to play something like this. Still don't know.