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Discuss this tournament dynamic...

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  1. AawwNutz AawwNutz is offline

    Lewisville, TX
    United States

    Posts: 1,218
    Joined: Feb 05

    Dec 8th, 2008 (12/8/2008 2:15pm)

    Here's the situation:

    $2,000 buyin at Bellagio 5 Diamond
    Final Table with 4 left
    blinds 4k/8k - 30 minutes left in level, next blinds 6k/12k

    Hero: $450,000 in chips (all chips approx)
    Random Avg Player: $140,000
    Villian (Dutch Boyd): $650,000 in chips
    Good Internet Player moving into live action: $160,000

    Payouts: $162k, 95k, 52k, 30k

    Villian raises to 20k UTG
    RAP - Fold
    Hero in SB (QQ) raises to 59k
    GIP - Fold
    Villian reraises to 150k

    Facts: Hero had re-raised Villian 3 out of 40 prior hands to produce folds during the final table. Final table was the first time for the two to play together. Hero has already shown QQ and 44/QT against short stacks. Villian has already shown AA and QQ to win big pots.

    What is the best line here? How many people let cash equity affect tournament equity in this spot?
     
  2. Jaxsonguy Jaxsonguy is offline

    Wilmington, DE
    United States

    Posts: 1,760
    Joined: Jan 06

    Dec 8th, 2008 (12/8/2008 2:28pm) in reply to AawwNutz

    The pay jumps are very substantial......but I cant see anything but getting your stack in pre here.
    Dutch is prolly not afraid to 4bet, fold here.......is he?
    If he knows that you are a thinking player, does he lay 77, 88, AJ, etc if you come over the top???
     
  3. JDsmith9 JDsmith9 is offline

    Greensboro, NC
    United States

    Posts: 982
    Joined: Sep 07

    Dec 8th, 2008 (12/8/2008 2:31pm) in reply to AawwNutz

    I really feel like you need to get it in. Even if he is 4-betting to try to induce a 5-bet shove he's most likely doing this with JJ and AK too don't ya think? You're OOP throughout the entire hand so i think you need to get it in pre...regardless of payouts if you get dealt QQ 4 handed how could you ever fold lol
     
  4. NeverScaredB NeverScaredB is offline

    Vancouver
    Canada

    Posts: 856
    Joined: Jul 08

    Dec 8th, 2008 (12/8/2008 2:46pm) in reply to AawwNutz

    3/40 is a lot of 3-betting, especially for live play. Get it in with extreme prejudice.
    289 2 
  5. driftdc5 driftdc5 is offline

    Syosset, NY
    United States

    Posts: 474
    Joined: Oct 06

    Dec 8th, 2008 (12/8/2008 3:04pm) in reply to AawwNutz

    please tell me you got it in
     
  6. sandler1860 sandler1860 is online now

    Dayton, OH
    United States

    Posts: 3,394
    Joined: Nov 05

    Dec 8th, 2008 (12/8/2008 3:07pm) in reply to AawwNutz

    anything but allin is pretty ridiculous here....i mean only 2 hands beat you, and that wouls just be a sick cooler 4 handed, but you also could very well get called by hands u have destroyed because of the great pot ods Dutch is being offered and his aggro image. payouts dont even enter my mind.
     
  7. tcstunna tcstunna is offline

    Posts: 1,822
    Joined: Apr 06

    Dec 8th, 2008 (12/8/2008 3:18pm) in reply to sandler1860

    i'd prolly min raise/fold to shove. Im pretty sure thats the best line
    1
  8. AawwNutz AawwNutz is offline

    Lewisville, TX
    United States

    Posts: 1,218
    Joined: Feb 05

    Dec 8th, 2008 (12/8/2008 5:01pm) in reply to AawwNutz

    I shipped it here without a lot of thought because I had reraised him 3 times and because he might think he can make me fold some pretty good hands because of the short stacks.

    But, in the past couple of days, I began to contemplate whether the situation of the two short stacks gives me enough information to significantly change his range for his 4-bet.

    Or, should I have been cognizant of the tourney dynamic and just flat called preflop in order to minimize the chance of playing a big pot against the chip leader when I had 3x the other two stacks. To win a tournament you have to get heads up and I think you get a lot of equity by playing smaller stacks that are forced to get desperate.

    I have a very good business that allows me to make poker decisions for reasons other than money. Although, I don't have to worry whether I win 30k or 162k, professional poker players are not afforded the same luxury. He may play the hand very cautiously even if I flat call his 4-bet.

    The last thought: Does shoving really produce any more equity in THIS spot? I think it either protects your best hand or you risk 300k as a 4-1 dog. Better hands don't fold, worse hands don't call. I am not even sure he calls with AK. He can fold AK there and have a great chance of making an additional 62k.

    I appreciate anyone's serious feedback...
     
    Thread Starter
  9. MuiMuiBueno MuiMuiBueno is offline

    Amherstburg
    Canada

    Posts: 823
    Joined: Dec 07

    Dec 8th, 2008 (12/8/2008 5:16pm) in reply to AawwNutz

    the problem with posts like this is that u r giving away the hand dutch had, KK or AA obv. u r being resultsoriented and since u said "i dont think he will call with AK either" u r giving us the answer. that said i would flat pre if u r not willing to get it in when he 4bets u. by 3betfolding, ur turning ur hand into 78ss or watever. if i was playing i would 5bet instantly and expect to be ahead even if he snapcalls
  10. undertheradar undertheradar is offline

    Goddard, KS
    United States

    Posts: 2,471
    Joined: May 06

    Dec 8th, 2008 (12/8/2008 8:53pm) in reply to MuiMuiBueno

    when you re-raised what were your intentions? You never planned on folding so second guessing your move is unneccessary. A lag player like Dutch is very likely to know that you could be re-raising with air thus the extra bet. And if he isn't aware of your stature, he could be using the other short stacks to get you to fold to the extra cash. I would shove rather than raise, a player like him would call you lighter than most. Just my 2 cents
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