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Does anyone else fold this draw? 1-2nl

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  1. northstar575 northstar575 is offline

    Thunder Bay
    Canada

    Posts: 784
    Joined: Oct 06

    Feb 8th, 2008 (2/8/2008 1:16am)

    Background on my opponent

    He seems very solid, normally I would fold to a reraise from him, but being so deep I was hoping for good implied odds, of course all that changed once the flop hit.

    Should I have flat called flop, lead out flop (EDIT not preflop), maybe fold preflop?? I figured him on qq-ak based on how he played the hand. Even though I'm getting decent odds I think I have to fold here.

    ALSO THESE ARE PRIMA HISTORIES SO A RAISE 20 MEANS I NEED TO CALL 14 MORE NOT 20.

    - pokerkurt222 sitting in seat 1 with $386.90
    - 88keyz sitting in seat 2 with $265.35 [Dealer]
    - JHallqvist sitting in seat 3 with $207.30
    - JockScott sitting in seat 4 with $230.65
    - northstar575 sitting in seat 5 with $408.80
    - Ingabritt53 sitting in seat 6 with $412.77

    JHallqvist posted the small blind - $1.00
    JockScott posted the big blind - $2.00
    ** Dealing card to northstar575: Ace of Diamonds, 5 of Diamonds
    northstar575 raised - $6.00
    Ingabritt53 raised - $20.00
    pokerkurt222 folded
    88keyz folded
    JHallqvist folded
    JockScott folded
    northstar575 called - $20.00

    ** Dealing the flop: King of Diamonds, Queen of Diamonds, 6 of Clubs
    northstar575 checked
    Ingabritt53 bet - $36.00
    northstar575 raised - $107.00
    Ingabritt53 went all-in - $356.77
    northstar575 folded
    Ingabritt53 mucks:
    Ingabritt53 wins $539.77 from the main pot

    End of game 1858643471
  2. thefuture021 thefuture021 is offline

    Dallas, TX
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    Feb 8th, 2008 (2/8/2008 1:22am) in reply to northstar575

    Oh dear...

    I don't like even seeing that flop, but if you're going to play Ad5d you sure as hell don't fold there.
  3. northstar575 northstar575 is offline

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    Feb 8th, 2008 (2/8/2008 1:23am) in reply to thefuture021

    so fold pre?
    Thread Starter
  4. northstar575 northstar575 is offline

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    Feb 8th, 2008 (2/8/2008 1:23am) in reply to northstar575

    I figured I was either against aa, or often a set so even with odds I was losing long run calling with my flush draw.
    Thread Starter
  5. chknpotpie chknpotpie is offline

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    Feb 8th, 2008 (2/8/2008 1:28am) in reply to northstar575

    The problem with calling these hands out of position is you get these hands...fold pre and save yourself.

    As played, the flop its VERY likely to have hit him, giving his range as AJ+ 99+,
    If you raise, you are most likely getting pushed with AK qq kk AA, unless your some nit and your only raising 66 KQ there. Giving the diamonds on the board, i think this is an instant push from him when you make such a large raise to 107 here. If you are gonna raise, specially with that board, do not plan on folding to a push, since i think your getting shoved back here 50% of the time.

    A reason a raise here is so bad is cause its most likely to hit him, and therefore youll be drawing 33% at best, and what do you do if he smooths and the turn blanks. If i was in this position id smooth call here, and possibly let a non diamond scare card fall on the turn. No need to commit so much $ on such a marginal hand, ask yourself would you make this raise with 45d?, then i wouldnt make it with A5d.
  6. Big Swing Big Swing is offline

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    Feb 8th, 2008 (2/8/2008 1:29am) in reply to northstar575

    Why raise the flop? And i guess if i do raise the flop i am gonna gamble with the all in.
  7. northstar575 northstar575 is offline

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    Feb 8th, 2008 (2/8/2008 1:32am) in reply to Big Swing

    Ya based on texture of flop I think my raise was really bad.
    Thread Starter
  8. northstar575 northstar575 is offline

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    Feb 8th, 2008 (2/8/2008 1:34am) in reply to chknpotpie

    Honestly I didn;t think he was gonna push the flop given how deep stacked we were (I still had 280 hehind me. But given texture of flop I agree probably a bad place to semi bluff.
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  9. Rocket Surgeon Rocket Surgeon is offline & brain scientist

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    Feb 8th, 2008 (2/8/2008 1:36am) in reply to northstar575

    What was your intention when you raised?
  10. northstar575 northstar575 is offline

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    Feb 8th, 2008 (2/8/2008 1:41am) in reply to Rocket Surgeon

    MY problem was that I played it very similar to how I would if I had 100bbs agianst an aggresive player. I was hoping to get him off of something like jj or aq, he was 30/20 player and very aggresive, regardless of flop after reraising he would continue bet probably 95% of time (I have 1.5k hands on him). I recently stacked him on another table with a set and was hoping he;d give me credit. Problem was once he moved in i realized given how big my stack was that check riasing the nut flush draw was not nearly as good at 200bbs than 100bbs (which I do along with sets every so often).
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  11. msteitz12 msteitz12 is offline

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    Feb 8th, 2008 (2/8/2008 3:26am) in reply to northstar575

    I dont think you should be raising this hand pre-flop when your utg. Since you do play it and get reraised, you should be folding or 4-betting. Preferably fold, unless you know this opponet will lay down big hands. Calling out of position with A5 is very unprofitable. You hit this flop about as good as you could, expecially since your ace could be dominated. You've gotta go to the felt if your going to play this hand.

    GL
     
  12. TheConArtist TheConArtist is offline

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    Feb 8th, 2008 (2/8/2008 5:01am) in reply to northstar575

    This hand is just really brutally played, no offense OP.

    Can we have some reads on villain? "He is solid" is not a read.

    Raising UTG 6 handed with A5 suited is a little loose tbh. I really think you should just be folding here.

    Ok now we get 3 bet, we are deep stacked and OOP. Honestly just fold here. You are just not gonna be able to play this profitably OOP here in a 3 bet pot especially vs a 'solid' player (playing 200NL on Prima rly?)

    Why did you check raise if you are going to fold to the shove? You obviously had absolutely no plan whatsoever here. "I has a flush draw I check raise you". Nice...

    You are deep enough to just call his lead here and thats much much better than check raise folding. I think this is my preferred line since I really don't wanna get my stack in here if I don't think I can get my opponent to fold a large percentage of the time. If I am check raising I am calling a shove obviously and I think thats spewy. Bet/3 bet shoving also seems really spewy but again, its much much better than check raise/folding. Check folding seems really weak, but again its much much better than check raise/folding. I really don't think you coulda played this hand any worse.
  13. bossmanisme bossmanisme is offline

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    Feb 8th, 2008 (2/8/2008 5:44am) in reply to northstar575

    don't raise pre, fold. don't call the raise pre, fold. (though i think calling is better than 4 betting, like a previous poster suggested)

    postflop, i like your general thinking of playing your draws aggressively. but you need to look at stack sizes and play the numbers through in your head *before* it actually happens. when you do this play, the idea is to apply pressure to sometimes get a fold (which you did) or have a decent chance to suck out (which you didn't get because you left yourself fold equity.)

    since you did get into this situation on the flop, if you wanted to play it aggressively i would lead out. you make weaker hands (like the JJ you mentioned) muck while risking less. if you get called, you see a turn and go from there.

    if you bet out 30 on the flop and get raised to 100, now you could three bet all in and now you are applying all the pressure and not having to fold your hand. i don't neccessarily think this is the best play, since you're probably not getting the guy off of his hand (he's showed a *ton* of strength this hand), but since he's solid you could maybe say you have some fold equity. maybe he'll muck aces if he thinks you have 2 pair or a set. but if you wanted to get all in on the flop with your draw, this is the way to do it.

    NJM
  14. dandickau dandickau is online now

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    Feb 8th, 2008 (2/8/2008 5:53am) in reply to TheConArtist

    Don't raise preflop. Don't call the 3-bet preflop. Don't play 1-2NL if you're going to do those things. Listen to TheConArtist, he knows what he's talking about; especially about not calling 3-bets OOP, particularly when deep.

    As played, once you raise and he goes all in, you have to call $249.77 to win the $506.77 that's already in the pot, so you need 33% equity to call. Your flush draw is exactly 33% to win against his tightest possible range (QQ+ AK+) so you should call and pray.
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