<SPAN lang=EN-US>Ok, usual reader not so usual poster! I decided to post this and try to get some help and maybe help others. <SPAN> </SPAN>Quite long, sorry!</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US>It regards DONs. I understand a bit about cev and $ev but got a few doubts! I played 750 in November and got 60% ITM and 14% ROI in them, I guess it is not that bad but also let me know.
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First, can a player $ev during a DON be over double the buy in? (eg. 5$ BI, one can never win more than 10$ no matter how many chips he has) I mean, if one can only win twice as much as invested, is it fair to consider that his chips are worth more?</SPAN>

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2<SUP>nd</SUP>, I read a lot about push/fold mode for regular SNGs, can understand ranges and all the nash stuff, but in a DON, I get a few doubts. Maybe an example could help me(maybe others) out: it regards not the push/fold but the CALL!</SPAN>
<SPAN lang=EN-US>I’m considering UTG $ev is higher than the amount he can actually win, don’t know if its correct has I said earlier. Cause if his 4500 chips are actually only worth 10$s (not the 15$s) then the remaining 5$ have to be divided by the other players that are bellow 3000 chips.
</SPAN> <TABLE class=MsoNormalTable cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=256 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>Pos</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>Chips</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>cev</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>$ev</SPAN></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>UTG</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>4500</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>0,3</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>15</SPAN></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>UTG+1</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>1500</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>0,1</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>5</SPAN></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>CO</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>3000</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>0,2</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>10</SPAN></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>BU</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>3000</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>0,2</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>10</SPAN></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>SB</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>1500</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>0,1</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>5</SPAN></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>BB</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>1500</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>0,1</SPAN></TD><TD vAlign=bottom noWrap width=64><SPAN>5</SPAN></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><SPAN lang=EN-US><SPAN>
</SPAN>Blinds 150/300 and don’t mind antes.
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Ok, folds around to SB that pushes, BB has 300 already invested, there’s 1800 there so he has to put in the rest of his stack (1200) to call. cEV would be like 1200 into 1800 pot, <SPAN> </SPAN>or 1 to 1.5 odds, making any hand that does well more than 66% of the time Vs his range a profitable call which is probably not very good(correct me if I’m wrong).</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US><SPAN>
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Now $Ev: we fold we still have a $Ev of 4$s, if we call and win we get it up to 10$s (cause he busts) if we lose our equity goes down to 0 (we bust) so can I consider that I’m risking 4$s to win 10$s here? Or I have to consider the 5$s $Ev I had before the hand was dealt? In this case what hand do I need to call with? Is 60/40 good here?
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For last, imagine the same scenario, but now UTG has 5000 chips and UTG+1 has 1000.
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Again, I’m posting cause I really don’t know and I believe many others don’t too and hope this doubts are legit. Any advice /correction to my though process would be much appreciated. I still guess that my “math” problem is in the $Ev question for DONs, I’ve been folding AJ, KQs type of hands in this situation maybe too often, even knowing I’m ahead of the pusher range (well, folding when I’m not the shortie). Hope it is understandable, not English native here!
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Many Thanks</SPAN>

EDIT: That post ^^ wasn't there when I started :)

To me, your chips can't be worth any more than the most you can win; it just doesn't make sense. Nobody would ever chop with you like that, so why think they are worth that much money? Those numbers you provided for that chop are a proportional chip chop. (UTG has 4500/15000 chips, or 30% of the chips on the table, therefore he deserves 30% of the prizepool, which is $15 etc.) Remember, the more chips you have, the less each one is worth. The converse is also true.

I ran those stacks through the Nash Equilibrium Calculator (which also gives you the equity of everyones stack, at the top), there it says that in this situation, everyone may open shove profitably (except UTG+1, who only open-shoves 86% of his hands). In your situation, the SB is open-shipping ATC, and your calling range is 6.6% of the starting hands, 77+ ATs+ AQo+.

ICM Nash Calculator Results

As far as the pot odds go, if 1800 is in the pot, and it's costing BB 1200 to call, he is getting 3:2, and only has to win the hand 40% of the time.

If you call and win, your equity is obviously $10, and $0 if you lose. If you fold, you'll have 1200 left and your share is $6.46. So for this to be a +EV call, you have to win the pot > 64.6% of the time.

It appears to me that pot odds say you can call a bit light here, but when it breaks down to actual dollars, you need some legit hands (77+ ATs+ AQo+) for this to be profitable.

Remember what you can be doing on the other side of this situation. The ICM Nash Calculator says you can pretty much open-shove ATC from any of those seats profitably.

For your second example, now anyone can open-shove ATC, except for UTG+1 (who opens 31% of his starting hands). If it folds to SB, who goes AI, your calling range has narrowed to 99+.

ICM Nash Calculator Results

I'm new to this stuff too, but I think I have a good grasp of it. I'm also a math geek, so when it comes to numbers, I usually put alot of emphasis on it. It makes sense to me, hopefully it helps you too!

- MDG