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Fears of being drawn out on. (with example)

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  1. WTFcircus WTFcircus is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2009 (10/22/2009 6:25pm)

    Anyone else feel they don't "maximize value" on hands because of the fear of being drawn out on?

    Any of you learn to correct this problem?

    Heres an example. Do you think I played this horribly with 4 people in the hand?

    pokerstars Game #34369781469: Tournament #207770694, $2.50+$0.25 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2009/10/22 18:20:34 ET
    Table '207770694 329' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
    Seat 1: maurollope (12175 in chips)
    Seat 2: phane59 (3820 in chips)
    Seat 3: ragingbullj (14425 in chips)
    Seat 4: WTFcircus (10481 in chips)
    Seat 5: AlexBrain.ru (13891 in chips)
    Seat 6: SNGGrinder84 (7530 in chips)
    Seat 7: madalinutz (2946 in chips)
    Seat 9: nachoys (6335 in chips)
    ragingbullj: posts small blind 75
    WTFcircus: posts big blind 150
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to WTFcircus [Tc 3h]
    AlexBrain.ru: folds
    CardsFan54 is connected
    SNGGrinder84: folds
    madalinutz: calls 150
    nachoys: calls 150
    maurollope: folds
    phane59: folds
    ragingbullj: calls 75
    WTFcircus: checks
    *** FLOP *** [Ts 8d 3d]
    ragingbullj: bets 300
    WTFcircus: raises 600 to 900
    madalinutz: folds
    nachoys: folds
    ragingbullj: folds
    Uncalled bet (600) returned to WTFcircus
    WTFcircus collected 1200 from pot
    WTFcircus: doesn't show hand
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 1200 | Rake 0
    Board [Ts 8d 3d]
    Seat 1: maurollope folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 2: phane59 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 3: ragingbullj (small blind) folded on the Flop
    Seat 4: WTFcircus (big blind) collected (1200)
    Seat 5: AlexBrain.ru folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: SNGGrinder84 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 7: madalinutz folded on the Flop
    Seat 9: nachoys folded on the Flop
  2. J_BOYZZ J_BOYZZ is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2009 (10/22/2009 6:30pm) in reply to WTFcircus

    That not really fear of being outdrawn, I mean you should be fearing it. What other option were u thinking? Flatting in a 4 way pot on a FD board to trap them all?
  3. rainmanrcp rainmanrcp is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2009 (10/22/2009 6:33pm) in reply to J_BOYZZ

    Yea thats a leak of mine, I don't think thats whats being shown in this HH, but sometimes I do find myself overprotecting my hand and losing alot of value :\.
  4. JksRbetter JksRbetter is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2009 (10/22/2009 6:34pm) in reply to J_BOYZZ

     
    Originally Posted by J_BOYZZ View Post

    That not really fear of being outdrawn, I mean you should be fearing it. What other option were u thinking? Flatting in a 4 way pot on a FD board to trap them all?

    What he is saying is. In this particular spot if you just flat here to build a pot, you are asking for trouble.
  5. GrayFOX22 GrayFOX22 is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2009 (10/22/2009 6:37pm) in reply to J_BOYZZ

    I expect it all the time even when I have the nuts. If the majority of their range includes hand that are still live and have outs to resuck (or "live" as they call it), I'd rather check my hand down as long as they are still live or could resuck ("live" outs).
     
  6. WTFcircus WTFcircus is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2009 (10/22/2009 6:43pm) in reply to rainmanrcp

    In this HH I'm showing that I flopped a strong hand and SB leads out but with 2 people after me left to act and a FD out there I raise, but by my raise am I not maximizing my value for the hand?

    Another example, holding AKs against one other player. Flop comes AQT rainbow, I find myself leading out for 1/2 or 2/3 pot, or re raising if lead into.
    Thread Starter
  7. Brann6 Brann6 is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2009 (10/22/2009 7:27pm) in reply to WTFcircus

    umm, protecting your hand is not fear. Giving your opponents bad odds to chase is not fear.

    You had top and bottom pairs in a 4-way limped pot. Any JT,QT,KT,AT...hell, even T9 could be out there (not to mention the flush draws.)

    I'm confused...why wouldn't you bet to protect your hand?

    Brann
  8. WTFcircus WTFcircus is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2009 (10/22/2009 7:30pm) in reply to Brann6

    this was just put up as an example, (possibly a bad one). But I'm mainly just talking in general. I feel I do this with any strong hand on the flop vs any draw. I feel that over protecting my hand leads to me losing alot of value that I could be making.
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  9. TFly33 TFly33 is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2009 (10/22/2009 7:33pm) in reply to WTFcircus

    I agree a lot of players (including myself sometimes) play too aggressive and lose value out of fear of bad beats. This HH is not a good example of that. There is actually normally a calculation of the bet you have to make to give your opponent poor odds should they be drawing, although this becomes difficult with implied odds, as long as you know about where you are at in the hand you are fine.
  10. WTFcircus WTFcircus is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2009 (10/22/2009 7:47pm) in reply to TFly33

    Take the two other players (that act behind) out of the hand. Would you raise with only the SB in the hand? Or flat and see what happens on the turn? I feel if I raise him on the flop and he has a FD he would flat and peel one more? Any thoughts?
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  11. manderbutt manderbutt is offline

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    Oct 23rd, 2009 (10/23/2009 7:16am) in reply to WTFcircus

    I think it's really about getting value out of people who will call reraises or jam draws over you. Don't think about it as if "you're scared of the draw"... but more-so that you're confident in building a pot which is multiway where you think there is a good chance that someone behind could shove or improperly call your 3b w/ something like a draw or top pair. Think of it more as you're trying to get value... and hey... it's kinda nice how at the same time you're protecting your hand.
     
  12. Brann6 Brann6 is offline

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    Oct 23rd, 2009 (10/23/2009 7:48am) in reply to WTFcircus

     
    Originally Posted by WTFcircus View Post

    this was just put up as an example, (possibly a bad one). But I'm mainly just talking in general. I feel I do this with any strong hand on the flop vs any draw. I feel that over protecting my hand leads to me losing alot of value that I could be making.

    Ok, I think I see where you're coming from here...but you're wrong.

    Hope I can explain this clearly.

    From a value standpoint you want your opponents to call when they're not getting the odds to do so. It doesn't matter if they hit. If you can get villains to regularly call while getting bad odds you'll earn at cash games and often go deep in tournaments. Not sure what else you'd want. (I won't get into overbetting flops/overraising pre-flop against the right opponents.) As a standard, ABC type of poker play, you should be bet-sizing enough to build the pot for value,give your opponent bad odds to call, while not overbetting.

    From a psychological point of view your mindset is all wrong for online poker. Online poker is not a home game where everyone politely calls small bets to the river and then one or two of them pay you off (or you pay off when they hit that gutshot.) Micro-stakes online is about betting for value when you have the goods, not paying off obvious chasers, and getting them to put money in against the odds. You need to do this BEFORE the river, because they're off the hook then if they missed.

    You're playing it right...for the wrong reasons.

    Brann
  13. lordxixor101 lordxixor101 is offline

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    Oct 23rd, 2009 (10/23/2009 9:31am) in reply to Brann6

    Brann hit it dead on here.

    I think both your examples, betting is the right thing to do. In the shown example, 10 high, you reraise to a bet. I think most of the time, your getting called by a flush draw, or 10 with a face card here. Part of winning is, not only do you have to have a hand, so does other people. You got a junk flop, sb may have decided to bluff it, and when you reraise, he folds. You have to fatten the odds on the flush draw, so it's bad to chase. That's what you did, no one had anything this time.

    For the AQ10, assuming you raised pre, this could be a great flop. Lots of hands may pay off here. But, you can't let people catch.

    Your protecting your hand, this really isn't fear. So, your moves are right (and your bet sizes aren't rediculous either, you aren't pushing 50bb into hands to protect, your bets are reasonable.

    But, I do fear, if your doing this for fear, at some point, that fear will lead you to start doing the wrong moves.

    In a $2 game, protecting your hand and being agressive when you hit are usually good ideas, since bad players will overvalue their draws, and will chase at any cost (hence, you have to make it expensive so they lose value when they do).
  14. WTFcircus WTFcircus is offline

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    Oct 23rd, 2009 (10/23/2009 4:04pm) in reply to lordxixor101

    Thanks Brann and Lord! I understand what your trying to say. It's good to know you guys think Im doing the right thing by protecting my hand. Playing on stars and FTP have almost gotten me paranoid haha.

    Thanks again
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