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  1. Any ideas on this scenario that happened to me in a tournament last night:

    4th place in chips (45k) with 11 players left. I'm in SB, chip leader is a good player in my BB. Blinds 800/1600, everyone folds to me. I have AJ diamonds and bet $3,200 trying to display some strength and keep BB from pushing all-in. I also wanted a chance to win his huge stack.

    Flop comes: QJ8 rainbow. I bet out 3,200. BB calls. Man I hate flat callers.

    Turn comes 6 of spades for 2 spades on board: I feel I've got the best hand so I bet out 8,600. BB doubles the bet. I think he is just trying to figure out if his J or 8 is good or he has a weak kicker with his Q. I just call the extra bet.

    River brings a 2 of clubs: I check wanting to get more information from the player. If he shows weakness I'm gonna pound him. Hopefully he'll just check and my J will be good. BB pushes all-in. I've still got 21k in chips, but if I win i'll have 90k and the chip lead headed to the final table.

    My question: What does he have and what would you do? Don't assume that I'm writing this because I lost, I may just be proud of my laydown or my call.
     
  2. Oh man, I want to know what happened!! Uhh, well the flat call on the flop could represent a strong hand, trying to sucker you in for more. Since you only raised min, he could easily have a hand like T9, so that's my guess.

    AM I RIGHT??
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  3. He called your pre flop raise, saying he had a hand worth defending, he called your bet after the flop, he raised your big bet on the turn so either he thinks you are trying to intimidate him or he has an actual hand. Your calling his raise rather than putting him all in shows you don't have the nutz. Your check on the river confirms that you don't have the nutz. I think you lay down your J to his bet on the river and he shows you Q or QQ or 88 set in his pocket. I hope you post an answer after others give their opinions.
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  4. Im going to say that he had A 8 of spades. He got excited with the second spade and made the raise and then tried to scare you out with the all-in bet, so you won the had with your jacks.
    Im probably wrong as usual but hope you werent.
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  5. First Id like to say this would be perfect for me "weekly poker quiz" forum idea...haha. Second, onto the hand. First I HATE when people raise to just double the bet. So with your A-J, Im gonna bet 3x the BB...now if he calls its MUCH easier for me to put him on a queen later. but he could be calling with 10-J (which is my guess of what he had). I also wouldnt rule out something crazy like Q-8 or J-8. Thats the problem with such small raises, he could have almost ANYTHING and hes going to defend his blind. The only thing I see him folding in that spot is something like 7-4, 9-3...something REALLY bad...anything decent and hes going to call AND he's in position. I mean, you had 45k, so he must of had what, 60? 75? youre gonna scare out 75k by doubling his blind? I think not. I dont mean to rip on you or anything, sorry if it seems like that, but really IMO, this was a pretty large mistake and makes it hard for you to put him on a hand later. Now, when he moves in on the river, unless he has you outchipped by a TON...like if he had 150 or something, you have to give him credit for SOMETHING...hes not gonna cripple himself on a stone bluff with 11 players left (I would think). Lets just say you HAD raised 3x BB preflop...you could be pretty sure he has a hand if he was in, because he would have thrown away anything garbage preflop. The worst thing you can do in holdem unless you have the STONE COLD NUTS is let people see cheap cards. Anyway PLEASE let us know what happened..hehe
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  6. I thought about 10 9 when deciding whether to call. If you had the nut straight would you go all-in and risk running the player with what is certainly a playable hand out of the pot or would you make a bet that he could call and maybe move over the top of you with. I would want at least 3200 or 6400 more in chips if I were the other player.
     
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  7. I was really set on a weak Q but couldn't imagine him going all-in if he only had a weak Q. Half of my chips were in the pot, so there's a good chance I would call him down with another Q. And I agree with you that my actions showed that I didn't have the nuts, thus presenting him a golden opportunity to bluff. I gotta think he would have raised QQ or 88 pre-flop because of my little raise pre-flop. You probably don't want to see a flop with those hands. Q8 I thought was a real possibility - a defendable hand that later becomes slow played. But, I still don't know if you run the player off for the final bet with 2 pair.
     
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  8. This is a real possibility here. Many players bluff strongly after missing a draw and being checked to.
     
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  9. First of all, AJs up against the BB, I want action. I don't want to run him off his blind. I don't mind playing after the flop with a big stack. I do agree that you can "put him on a hand" easier with a big raise, but this guy was a good enough player that if he'll defend for 2xBB, he'll also defend for 3x BB. Most good players will defend their blind only when it is worth defending because they know that 3 hands later they can easily get their blinds back.

    He started the hand with about 90k in chips and hadn't really shown down anything unusual.
     
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  10. I put him on spades or some combination hand with spades, like K9 of spades. When he just doubles ur bet on the turn, it shows he is not afraid of the draws out there, otherwise he would bet bigger to protect a hand like two pair against the straight and flush draws. His all in move on the river seems to be a busted draw trying to buy it after u showed so much weakness. You set it up perfectly and call with AJ and he shows K9 of spades-K high. Your pair of jacks makes u chip leader.
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  11. disclaimer: I'm just a fish who doesn't play MTTs

    He might have a hand, he might not. His play is consistent with having flopping a pair of queens or better, and it's also consistent with turning a flush draw that missed, but he felt justified betting into you since you pretty much announced on the turn that you only had a pair.

    I think you did end up laying that one down. You checked on the river trying to get information: if he showed weakness, you were going to pound him. Okay, but what if he showed strength, as he did there? What was your plan? Call him anyways? If he had a hand, he might also have done a weak lead, trying to sucker you into pushing in. Another thing you have to consider is that if he's the chip lead, he doesn't really have to gamble right now. If you see it from his perspective, he's already in first, and he's making a huge bet that could send him back into the middle of the pack again, but if he wins he's still the chip lead ... he really doesn't gain much from gambling here.

    Statistically I think you would have been justified in calling him anyways. Maybe it was 50-50% that he had a hand. If you called him, you would have cruised into at least third and made a lot more than if you laid it down and creeped into, say, eighth. Given the tourney structure, I'd choose a 50% of getting third rather than a 100% of getting eighth.
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  12. Okay, so what was the final outcome??? I can't wait any longer!!
  13. Just my 2 cents and I don't know much, but I bet that you call his bet and he shows 2 pair!

    My question is this...if you did do this and planned on calling him anyway, then why wouldn't you show strength and go all-in before he had a chance and maybe scare him away?

    You had nothing to lose if you were going to call anyway right?

    Remember this is comming from an idiot who happens to be curious.
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  14. Checking on the river would be the right move if you were going to call him anyways. If you go all in first to act on the river, he can only call you with a better hand. If you check, this may induce him to bluff or even make a bet that he thinks is for value, but doesnt beat your hand.
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  15. Drum roll please.....

    I called the all-in and he showed me his nuts - 9To. v77Raider was the player and I gotta give him all the props in the world, because he totally played me like a fool. Even when I made the call, I thought I was ahead. I figured he had a J or an 8 and was trying to take the pot after I showed a little weakness.

    I played four majors this weekend and got "runner-runner"ed out in two of them and the other 2 the guys hit a 2 outer on either the turn or the river to put me out. It totally pissed me off.

    It actually felt pretty good to get my ass handed to me by another player. It's not a bad way to go out. Looking back, obviously, I shoulda played the turn a little more conservatively and been ready to lay it down. But, that's not my style. I fall on my sword sometimes when I feel like I'm ahead regardless of what the board shows. I played ALMOST flawlessly in this tourney - the best reads I've had in a long time. But, this is NL, it only takes one bad hand.

    Of course, the river call wasn't too hard because of the way I felt and the fact that over half of my chips were in the pot and I woulda been about 60% of average after folding. I hate getting to the final table and having to tiptoe around.

    There were some really good answers here. I certainly enjoyed hearing different strategies.
     
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  16. "It actually felt pretty good to get my ass handed to me by another player. It's not a bad way to go out."

    I could not agree with you more. It can only be taken as a great learning experience. I am an amateur at best..although I think I am above average player lol, but I think this is the best way to learn. Experience is every thing!!!!!!
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  17. I dont see how this guy makes the all in move with the nuts on the river. After you had indicating INCREDIBLE weakness how did he know that you would go for the all in play?? I mean I understand the play and use it sometimes when an opponent has shown that he might be interested in calling an all in but this is not the case here. How does he not value bet u here?
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  18. He does value play, for as much as he can get out of the hand. AawwNutz already showed he was in the hand, calling the raise on the turn. Either he was folding to any bet or calling any bet, so why not challenge him for as many chips as possible- which is what happened. Great thread.
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  19. I finally decided that the guy was either a really good player, or just didn't realize the play he made on me.
     
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  20. sophiea,

    I don't think his play qualifies as a value play. He was more going for the kill. It's obvious that I don't have the nuts, but do have a piece of it. There are certainly smaller bets that I would almost have to call considering the pot. I think he only had a 20% chance of me calling considering that I would be eliminated.
     
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  21. Yes, you do want to run him off, because if you dont, this is what happens.
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  22. Great thread and a very interesting hand. I'm a little late to chime in on the subject; having not read it until all the information was given. However, here is my take anyway.

    PREFLOP
    I agree with raising with AJ in a heads up situation. The size of the raise is relative to the size of your previous raises; as well as the average raise at the table. Without that knowledge, I prefer to raise more than that especially with AJ AT type hands. I agree with your point of "wanting" action with this hand in a HU situation; however, in the latter stages of the tournament I have no problem winning the blinds/antes and building gradually; especially when I will be out of position throughout the hand.

    FLOP

    I like your bet on the flop; however, I HATE his smooth-call. It means 1 of 2 things in my opinion. Monster or Positional call. I think the mini-raise preflop really hurts in deciphering b/w the 2. He could easily be calling this flop bet without a hand hoping to pick the pot up on the turn by taking advantage of his position.

    Turn

    This is where I really dislike your play. I think there are two correct ways to play the turn here.

    A. Check allowing him to try to win the hand by default with a positional bet planning to checkraise. This is a risky play, due to the fact the BB could be slowplaying a monster, but allows you to pick up a substantial pot without a showdown; as well as, winning more chips from an inferior hand that won't call your turn bet. Obviously, if he flopped extremely well, he calls and we're gone from the tournament. This also is dangerous due to the "free card" you may allow your opponent to draw.

    B. Bet out on the turn (as you did) announcing you have a legitimate hand and not just a naked blind steal. However, I suggest releasing this hand at this point if I am raised. The big blind either has the big hand he is representing or is running a high risk play. The last thing I want to do is cripple myself in a marginal situation with poor position at this point in the tournament. I still have 30K and have plenty of room to make a nice showing in the tournament. If I call his raise, I am committing to this hand and would consider reraising all-in.

    My opinion isn't worth much, but I find that overplaying my blind hands out of position has been a crippling factor in many of my MTT.

    wsaul
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  23. Great analysis wsaul. In hindsight, it was the same answer I came up with. Unfortunately, it was hindsight and not foresight.
     
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  24. I think a mistake made by a lot of players is not betting enough when they have the nuts. Always trying to trap and always slowplaying everything is a MISTAKE, imo, for two reasons (at least). First off, good players will note this fact and will not respect your big bets, thereby crippling your ability to bluff. Secondly, good players just wont bite the bait. I always see players in sit n gos, low buy in multis, etc, making little min bets with monster hands. Theres a time for this play no doubt, esp against an overaggressive opponent that doesnt know when hes being trapped, but for most situations, HAVE SOME GUTS!!! Who cares if your opponents fold---youre never gonna win a big pot if you dont throw the money out there.
     
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  25. All I have to say is.. I WAS RIGHT!!

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    Oh man, I want to know what happened!! Uhh, well the flat call on the flop could represent a strong hand, trying to sucker you in for more. Since you only raised min, he could easily have a hand like T9, so that's my guess.
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  26. Skatter,

    I couldn't believe you hit it right on the head the first shot. Good job. I wish you would have been playing the hand, not me.
     
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