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FIRST hand in Stars $320 Wed Night

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  1. Cre8ive Cre8ive is offline Moderator

    Boynton Beach, FL
    United States

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    Mar 5th, 2011 (3/5/2011 10:36pm)

    Villian is a HSMTT Pro.. good player, TAG I would say, especially being the first hand of the tournament. No information on the flatter.

    Seat 1: DHUSTLER15 (3000 in chips)
    Seat 2: JShark4 (3000 in chips)
    Seat 3: jambeyang (3000 in chips)
    Seat 4: croll103 (3000 in chips)
    Seat 5: jdtjpoker (3000 in chips)
    Seat 6: Cre8ive (3000 in chips)
    Seat 7: da booboos (3000 in chips)
    Seat 8: _pimPat_ (3000 in chips)
    Seat 9: Villain (3000 in chips)
    JShark4: posts small blind 10
    jambeyang: posts big blind 20
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Cre8ive [Ks Kc]
    croll103 has timed out
    croll103: folds
    croll103 is sitting out
    jdtjpoker: folds
    Cre8ive: raises 40 to 60
    da booboos: calls 60
    _pimPat_: folds
    Villain: raises 240 to 300
    croll103 has returned
    DHUSTLER15: folds
    JShark4: folds
    jambeyang: folds
    Cre8ive: calls 240
    da booboos: folds
    *** FLOP *** [Qc 3s Td]
    Cre8ive: checks
    Villain: bets 365
    Cre8ive: calls 365
    *** TURN *** [Qc 3s Td] [2s]
    Cre8ive: checks
    Villain: checks
    *** RIVER *** [Qc 3s Td 2s] [Jh]
    Cre8ive: checks
    Villain: bets 1125
    Cre8ive: folds
    Uncalled bet (1125) returned to Villain
    Villain collected 1420 from pot
    Villain: doesn't show hand

    Thoughts on my line?
      
  2. hockeywonk hockeywonk is offline

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    Mar 5th, 2011 (3/5/2011 10:45pm) in reply to Cre8ive

    Why did you check the flop?
  3. BSherman2 BSherman2 is offline

    Tonawanda, NY
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    Mar 5th, 2011 (3/5/2011 10:48pm) in reply to hockeywonk

    Assuming he has a pretty tight 3bet range on the first hand, which I would have to believe he does based on your TAG read, you're losing to TT+ and AK so the river is a pretty easy fold as his bet on that board screams value. I don't mind the flat preflop as such a large 3b this early has to be pretty strong, and allows for you to play a strong hand thats strength is underrepped against a player who you can most likely get value out a good part of his range here.
  4. RUBINH RUBINH is offline

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    Mar 5th, 2011 (3/5/2011 10:54pm) in reply to BSherman2

    I'd 4b/call pre but yes, definitely fold this river.
  5. Alex Moore Alex Moore is offline

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    Mar 5th, 2011 (3/5/2011 10:56pm) in reply to BSherman2

    river fold is fine, I dont think he is 3b AQ, its AK, QQ+ id say.
  6. DrDankRx23 DrDankRx23 is offline

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    Mar 5th, 2011 (3/5/2011 11:11pm) in reply to Alex Moore

    well played
     1
  7. pokerproplaya08 pokerproplaya08 is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 12:15am) in reply to DrDankRx23

    i thought it was fine, but im a gimp.
  8. uga7211 uga7211 is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 3:49am) in reply to pokerproplaya08

    yea im taking the same line.. river is questionable.. but ak seems to makeup most of his range the way the hand way played so river fold is fine..
     
  9. dgillis dgillis is offline Moderator

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 4:49am) in reply to uga7211

    tbh I think I have to ship the Kings pre with no reads. as opposed to playing oop against a random. Why didn't you? As played I have to think his check behind on the turn might say his repop pre was to range you and protect a vulnerable hand from a 3 way pot. I have no real problem with folding river though, AK plays that way too.
    Edited By: dgillis Mar 6th, 2011 at 04:51 AM
     
  10. hussainsajwani hussainsajwani is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 5:04am) in reply to dgillis

    i guess the line u took u have to fold river. i probably end up playing same sometimes pre this early. i might just check raise flop. but if i take the same line as u i would do the same. ul.
     
  11. Bake Me A Bake Me A is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 5:13am) in reply to hussainsajwani

    What if we check raise the flop to like 910? Then fold to a jam? Anyways I am probably 4bet folding pre..weak but I cant imagine a TAG player jamming anything but AA here pre, unless you have the same hand which would be possible..

    given the board, I dont think he bets KK on this river, think most of the time it is AK..the hand is so underrepresented I guess there is always that 10% chance of a bluff.
  12. NetFan44 NetFan44 is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 5:17am) in reply to Bake Me A

    4 betting pre here against a HSMTT pro at 10/20 seems awful
  13. penileinfection penileinfection is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 5:28am) in reply to NetFan44

    can someone explain to me why 4 betting pre is a bad option here?

    Is he folding QQ and AK?
  14. rungoodmuch rungoodmuch is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 5:51am) in reply to NetFan44

     
    Originally Posted by NetFan44 View Post

    4 betting pre here against a HSMTT pro at 10/20 seems awful

    Not this.
    I dont play these stakes often but I can't justify not 4ballin here pre. If someone could please explain the reasonings for just flatting pre, would be much appreciated.
  15. Scarypooper Scarypooper is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 6:11am) in reply to rungoodmuch

    Line seems fine throughout. And I prefer a flat pre over a 4 bet against a good reg and I dont think its close.
    166 2
  16. Bake Me A Bake Me A is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 6:21am) in reply to NetFan44

     
    Originally Posted by NetFan44 View Post

    4 betting pre here against a HSMTT pro at 10/20 seems awful

    Please explain how it is awful..if we 4bet to 710 I hardly think he is jamming worse, knowing that cre8ive knows that he is not 4betting light on the first hand of a big tournament. I would have to assume there would be some sort of level of respect between two pros, compared to a pro and a random. Now I realize you run into leveling wars when you do something like this because his thought process could be one above thinking that, and may just jam a AKs, but this is something I highly highly doubt..I think by just flatting our range is 77+, being the first hand I think we can eliminate any suited connectors besides maybe KQ, still think that is folding.

    O would assume villian has us on pairs only, but the first hand meta game plays into this lot more than I think people are giving credit. If he has us on only pairs, I think we can c/r flop and win it there or see a showdown a higher percentage of the time. Obviously I am no HSMTT'r, but this seems like the most valid argument with this hand..

    Can we get an explination why a flat is better here, is it just simply because we are OOP?
  17. Gags30 Gags30 is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 6:58am) in reply to Bake Me A

    i think you played the hand 100% optimally on every street (and i'm dead serious)
    170 2 

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  18. dgillis dgillis is offline Moderator

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 7:32am) in reply to Gags30

    are you folding 100% to a fourbet shove here with QQ? jj? 1010?
     
  19. mtstackin88 mtstackin88 is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 7:44am) in reply to dgillis

     
    Originally Posted by dgillis View Post

    are you folding 100% to a fourbet shove here with QQ? jj? 1010?

    3better isnt gona have tt or jj usually tho hed just flat pre
    5 1
  20. CJDeman CJDeman is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 7:46am) in reply to mtstackin88

    I dont play these stakes so take this as you will...

    it seems to me that in a sense you were "lucky" that the J came on the river, in that you are now seemingly beaten by every hand in his range (unless he has KK, but surely he would check that behind?) and have a relatively easy fold. I would be interested to know what the HSMTT regs would do facing the same bet but on a "harmless" river....do we still call hoping he has AK and not a set?

    Is check raising the flop terrible? I know we want to let villain hang himself with worse hands, but is he really putting any more money in the pot with a worse hand on later streets if he is a good player? A c/r here would let us either take the pot down or be fairly confident that we are beaten and put no more in? It just seems to me that we never really gave ourselves a chance to extract any value from our hand here....or am I way off?
     
  21. wonderkid23 wonderkid23 is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 7:51am) in reply to CJDeman

    If his 3betting range is QQ+, can't we just fold the flop?
    Edited By: wonderkid23 Mar 6th, 2011 at 09:08 AM
    Reason: spelling lol
  22. frazze2 frazze2 is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 7:59am) in reply to wonderkid23

    hes got AQ
  23. mdschluter mdschluter is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 8:00am) in reply to frazze2

    i like ur call preflop with how much he raised and the fact its the very 1st hand

    he can easily have qq or 1010 on flop here that beats u

    turn he checks narrowing his range a bit

    river he has to have ak. possibly qq jj or 1010. either way good fold on river cuz ur def beat
  24. decamps decamps is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 8:29am) in reply to mdschluter

    I dont think he s lucky the J hit (CJDeman post) as he would have bet turn with a set of Q 100% might slow down A as this flop TQ hit your range pretty hard when you flat 3b pre.I think you played it very well and sighh fold river AK there most of the times not sure if he value bets AA there after you check 3 streets specially this size.and TT JJ flats pre and not 3b imo ul
    Edited By: decamps Mar 6th, 2011 at 08:30 AM
    750 
  25. pokerproplaya08 pokerproplaya08 is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 9:03am) in reply to Gags30

     
    Originally Posted by Gags30 View Post

    i think you played the hand 100% optimally on every street (and i'm dead serious)

    pretty much this all the way
  26. Ozzie Ozzie is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 9:31am) in reply to pokerproplaya08

    not a holdem player but curious how this is optimal on all streets? are we giving him credit for ak and only ak? thats the only hand that id put in his range that now beats you since the flop. but we called the flop. i dunno, as played i gotta call the river... i dont like it either but i mean what are we calling the 3bet and flop bet for if we fold the river?

    i would have 4 bet pre and gone from there... having not 4bet pre i raise the flop. ill take my cooler or bad beat like a man(donk?) but im not playing kk oop and scared.

    EDIT: what else goes into the muck here assuming it was played the exact same up to the river decision? 89? tt? 23?
    Edited By: Ozzie Mar 6th, 2011 at 09:42 AM
  27. Jerraboi Jerraboi is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 1:06pm) in reply to Ozzie

     
    Originally Posted by Ozzie View Post

    not a holdem player but curious how this is optimal on all streets? are we giving him credit for ak and only ak? thats the only hand that id put in his range that now beats you since the flop. but we called the flop. i dunno, as played i gotta call the river... i dont like it either but i mean what are we calling the 3bet and flop bet for if we fold the river?

    i would have 4 bet pre and gone from there... having not 4bet pre i raise the flop. ill take my cooler or bad beat like a man(donk?) but im not playing kk oop and scared.

    EDIT: what else goes into the muck here assuming it was played the exact same up to the river decision? 89? tt? 23?

    i couldnt disagree with you more, assuming we put villian on a tight range given 1st hand TT+ AQ+...
    the line that he took screams AK or JJ tbh...i don't think he checks back turn w/ AQ, TT or QQ so i believe folding the river is 100% the best play...
    Edited By: Jerraboi Mar 6th, 2011 at 01:07 PM
  28. RedIceRap RedIceRap is offline Moderator

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 1:51pm) in reply to Jerraboi

    A bit weak imo.. Letting AK get there and not 4b pre just because its a good player/a 300$. On the river standard fold. Even if u woulda lost to his whole range (tt-aa and ak) after the river i think u lost money there in the long run. Id 4b pre to 800 and make one big bet on the flop, AK cant call there with a gutshot.. Think id shut down after that flop bet since i think qq and tt is also in villains call in pos range cause he maybe put me on AK somehow, also easy fold if he raises our flop bet. Just my 2c
     252 
  29. jshark4 jshark4 is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 2:27pm) in reply to RedIceRap

    seems good to me.
    2
  30. Appst08 Appst08 is offline

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    Mar 6th, 2011 (3/6/2011 2:28pm) in reply to Gags30

     
    Originally Posted by Gags30 View Post

    i think you played the hand 100% optimally on every street (and i'm dead serious)

    thought this from the absolute beginning. Your pretty good Tristan. Probably should /thread Pre is fine, flop/turn are fine and i dig the river fold.
     
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