I was very confident i was ahead but you never, villain makes weird min raise. Should i be making it 1200 in total after he min raises on turn or do you prefer to flat reraise as its early on?


pokerstars Hand #74541034711: Tournament #557011294, $20+$5+$2 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2012/01/26 19:54:22 ET
Table '557011294 8' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 2: bagio44 (2940 in chips)
Seat 3: aussiedodger (3000 in chips)
Seat 4: statsplayer (3090 in chips)
Seat 5: brrrb20 (3010 in chips)
Seat 6: NicolasdeC (2705 in chips)
Seat 7: basil86 (2910 in chips)
Seat 8: Stonecreek86 (2614 in chips)
Seat 9: chegusta4bet (2970 in chips)
bagio44: posts small blind 10
aussiedodger: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to basil86 [Th 8h]
statsplayer: folds
brrrb20: folds
NicolasdeC: folds
basil86: raises 40 to 60
Stonecreek86: folds
chegusta4bet: calls 60
bagio44: folds
aussiedodger: folds
*** FLOP *** [3h Ts 8d]
basil86: bets 80
chegusta4bet: calls 80
*** TURN *** [3h Ts 8d] [Qh]
basil86: bets 200
chegusta4bet: raises 200 to 400

Hmm that is weird. It's possible he has J9 or 33. Could have something like QJ as well. I'm probably flatting and re-evaluating on the river.

These min raises on the turn are so often a big hand. Honestly, I think I just fold here. I don't think there are many hands you beat that take this line. Maybe QJ, something like AhTh, but these hands will often just flat the turn as well. It really looks like you're beaten and I'd rather fold now than commit to paying off another river bet.

 

Originally Posted by Trembath29

These min raises on the turn are so often a big hand. Honestly, I think I just fold here. I don't think there are many hands you beat that take this line. Maybe QJ, something like AhTh, but these hands will often just flat the turn as well. It really looks like you're beaten and I'd rather fold now than commit to paying off another river bet.

FOLD?! hes min raised and i have two pair and a flush draw, a fold to his weird minraise would be awful...i really asked the question because i felt like i hadnt extracted the max...as a king hit the river it went check check and i was miles ahead...i was just wondering against a weak player is it better to raise the turn or play it safe when villains raise looks like a feeler (i dont have a clue where i am bet) if he has j9 or 33 i feel he makes it a least 600 but you never know i guess.

Oh I forgot about the flush draw there, then i can agree that would make it worth a call. I don't think It's worth a raise though because if you're ahead he can possibly fold and you will only win whats already in the pot, and if he's ahead then you are just making it more expensive for you to see the river.

A ton of weird advice given in this thread . I really have a hard time seeing him have J9 here, almost never especially in a $22. I think he's min raising as a blocker for the river so he doesnt have to call a large bet. He could have also floated you with KQ/QJ flop. Even this early in a tournament Im definetly going to go ahead and raise his turn bet for value. There is no way he thinks that you have 2 pair, especially 2 pair with a strong redraw. Say if you had position in this hand and he check min raised you turn I could see just flatting and seeing what he does river, however since you're out of position you're allowing him to check back a huge range of hands that you get value from river. I would go ahead and make it around 900-1000 and I would be happily calling a shove.

QJ/Q9/Q10/QK/AQ/KJhh/AJhh. I really dont see how you could not 4b here. If you flat turn you should be folding every non 8,10 or heart river? Just seems super bad considering that'our hand is pretty much face up, I really dont see the villian giving us credit for anything stronger than one pair.

what did villian have op?

 

Originally Posted by TheVillageGrinder

Ur range there seems a bit nonsensical. Why exactly do you think QJ Q9 KJ KQ are floating that flop? I mean how often? How many combos of those hands are you really putting in their range? And value from Qt? I like that ur trying to think thru this but some of this seems far fetched.

And to reiterate, just fold pre

actually feel you have the worst advice ITT and that rungoodsomuch has the right idea.

Also, to state the obv, don't fold pre, unless you're only looking to play your cards and not poker

I am assuming you lost the hand, but I don't think folding was much of an option given the strength of your hand. However, money saved is money earned and you could just as easily fold at this point without having thrown many chips away and still remained competitive for the next hand you get involved in.

I don't think I would be folding at that point, though I don't like the bet sizing on the turn instead preferring 50% of the pot. While the minimum re-raise screams strength, I would put to you that the villain has only hit the Queen with hands like AQ KQ QJ and maybe Q9, but villain didn't re-raise on you on flop to build pot with.

Sure J9 is possible, but I reckon anyone with J9 would have built the pot a little more to disguise the hand should it hit a straight on the turn or river. In fact, I would say QT is a more likely holding given the re-raise.

What I would have done, and I daresay someone won't like it, is to come over the top with another minimum re-raise to make it 600 to go. My reasoning for this is that your hand is still strong and you have the flush draw while we can safely assume the villain hasn't because it is more likely they have hit the Queen, although J9 was certainly possible. And so by making this extra bet, the villain would let you know what they actually had. J9 and QT would likely see a measured re-raise or possible call though I doubt it because of flush draw. Whereas if villain had only hit the Queen, I reckon you would see a call or shove.

And then you have the situation where someone has called you on the flop with a better flush draw than you. In this situation they have made the exact same move I have just mentioned as a semi-bluff to see where they stand AK AJ KJ A9 are all realistic cards to make a smallish re-raise with and all have draw value.

In essence, while I am still learning myself, it seems that you were winning that hand a lot more than you were losing it and should play accordingly without letting the bad beats get you down when they come up.

 

Originally Posted by pokerproplaya08

actually feel you have the worst advice ITT and that rungoodsomuch has the right idea.

Also, to state the obv, don't fold pre, unless you're only looking to play your cards and not poker

Great analysis. Usually in these threads ppl give their opinions and then support it in some analytical way. If you aren't going to do that, then why bother posting?

To state the obv, its best to play the opposite of how the tbl is playing. So, if you opponents are going to be lagging it up and floating flops with absolutely nothing and in general lagging it up, really doesn't make sense to open a lot of speculative hands.

So opening this really isn't a big mistake but its certainly not the necessary here and it could be argued that its really not optimal. At this stage in an mtt, at this buy level, in this format (i believe its a bounty), all u really need to do is play abc and watch ppl pay you off.

And actually the more I think about this spot, I guess I'm fine with just going ahead and 4 betting the turn and either calling a 5 bet or 6 bet shoving, considering the type of oppponent we are up against who, some % of the time can show up with a draw or be willing to get it ai with top pair/crappy kicker. That said, getting into these sorts of spots at this stage vs crappy opponents just isn't necessary.