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folded QQ preflop here - bad?

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  1. tmac2424 tmac2424 is offline

    Woodinville, WA
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    Oct 13th, 2008 (10/13/2008 12:07am)

    pokerstars Game #21151607864: Tournament #112085654, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level XII (500/1000) - 2008/10/13 0:04:30 ET
    Table '112085654 11' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
    Seat 1: TAZZIE22 (20030 in chips)
    Seat 2: Lazzycat#1 (8025 in chips)
    Seat 3: Jim666 (29095 in chips)
    Seat 4: kermitlaker4 (17540 in chips)
    Seat 5: tmac2424 (29430 in chips)
    Seat 6: @R.I.P.DONK (42795 in chips)
    Seat 7: ddagino (20530 in chips)
    Seat 8: tmoneyy (26360 in chips)
    Seat 9: iownufish (29245 in chips)
    TAZZIE22: posts the ante 100
    Lazzycat#1: posts the ante 100
    Jim666: posts the ante 100
    kermitlaker4: posts the ante 100
    tmac2424: posts the ante 100
    @R.I.P.DONK: posts the ante 100
    ddagino: posts the ante 100
    tmoneyy: posts the ante 100
    iownufish: posts the ante 100
    kermitlaker4: posts small blind 500
    tmac2424: posts big blind 1000
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to tmac2424 [Qs Qc]
    @R.I.P.DONK: folds
    ddagino: raises 3000 to 4000
    tmoneyy: folds
    iownufish: folds
    TAZZIE22: folds
    Lazzycat#1: raises 3925 to 7925 and is all-in
    Jim666: folds
    kermitlaker4: raises 3925 to 11850
    tmac2424:
  2. leftygrove leftygrove is offline

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    Oct 13th, 2008 (10/13/2008 12:20am) in reply to tmac2424

    I don't think so... I'd lean towards calling without reads, but I spew...

    ddagino: would he raise 4x with AA or KK? he probably has jacks or worse, AK... good chance he'll fold AK if you call anyways with all this action...
    lazzy: 8 BB's... wide range here
    kermit: trickiest decision... 12 BB's, range is probably 10-10+, AQs+... he might even fold 10-10 in that situation...

    I'd probably just go with my read of how aggressive kermit has been playing... if he's been tight, I fold; otherwise I call.

    You're probably facing an AK here, but if you're against something like AK and JJ, you're about a 45% favorite to win, and you'll be getting good odds on a coinflip for a lot of chips. If one of them has AA or KK, tough luck.

    But I'm interested in what others say...
  3. Protogen Protogen is offline

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    Oct 13th, 2008 (10/13/2008 12:33am) in reply to leftygrove

     
    Originally Posted by leftygrove View Post

    I don't think so... I'd lean towards calling without reads, but I spew...

    ddagino: would he raise 4x with AA or KK? he probably has jacks or worse, AK... good chance he'll fold AK if you call anyways with all this action...
    lazzy: 8 BB's... wide range here
    kermit: trickiest decision... 12 BB's, range is probably 10-10+, AQs+... he might even fold 10-10 in that situation...

    I'd probably just go with my read of how aggressive kermit has been playing... if he's been tight, I fold; otherwise I call.

    You're probably facing an AK here, but if you're against something like AK and JJ, you're about a 45% favorite to win, and you'll be getting good odds on a coinflip for a lot of chips. If one of them has AA or KK, tough luck.

    But I'm interested in what others say...

    This, except replace the word call with shove.
  4. SerlinSteak19 SerlinSteak19 is offline

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    Oct 13th, 2008 (10/13/2008 12:38am) in reply to tmac2424

    Seems pretty obvious its a fold. You got an ep raiser, a guy re raising all in, and then a guy that min re raises leaving himself with less than half his stack in order to get value from the ep raiser.
  5. Protogen Protogen is offline

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    Oct 13th, 2008 (10/13/2008 12:44am) in reply to SerlinSteak19

    kermit's range looks like [AA,KK,QQ] here. You could shove and snap-pray.
  6. Frank1The1Tank Frank1The1Tank is offline

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    Oct 13th, 2008 (10/13/2008 1:07am) in reply to tmac2424

    I think folding there is bad. ddagino likely rarely has AA and KK. You are definitely ahead of Lazzy's range here. Even if kermit's range is JJ+ and AK, QQ is still about 50/50 vs. that. If it's any wider at all you're ahead. That said, with all the money in the pot, I definitely get it in here without any specific reads. Vs. those ranges you are flipping or better with lots of overlay in the pot.
     
  7. leftygrove leftygrove is offline

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    Oct 13th, 2008 (10/13/2008 2:34pm) in reply to Protogen

     
    Originally Posted by Protogen View Post

     
    Originally Posted by leftygrove View Post

    I don't think so... I'd lean towards calling without reads, but I spew...

    ddagino: would he raise 4x with AA or KK? he probably has jacks or worse, AK... good chance he'll fold AK if you call anyways with all this action...
    lazzy: 8 BB's... wide range here
    kermit: trickiest decision... 12 BB's, range is probably 10-10+, AQs+... he might even fold 10-10 in that situation...

    I'd probably just go with my read of how aggressive kermit has been playing... if he's been tight, I fold; otherwise I call.

    You're probably facing an AK here, but if you're against something like AK and JJ, you're about a 45% favorite to win, and you'll be getting good odds on a coinflip for a lot of chips. If one of them has AA or KK, tough luck.

    But I'm interested in what others say...

    This, except replace the word call with shove.

    Good point; no clue why I wrote call when "shove" was in my head.
  8. xmeteorox xmeteorox is offline

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    Oct 13th, 2008 (10/13/2008 2:40pm) in reply to Protogen

     
    Originally Posted by Protogen View Post

    kermit's range looks like [AA,KK] here. You could shove and snap-pray.

    shove, and maybe pray ^^
  9. bluefin bluefin is offline

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    Oct 13th, 2008 (10/13/2008 2:57pm) in reply to tmac2424

    Seems like a pretty easy fold to me.

    Not sure why the min raise though from kermit, if he has AA or KK there, he should be getting it all in.
  10. kxywrx kxywrx is offline

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    Oct 13th, 2008 (10/13/2008 3:14pm) in reply to tmac2424

    purely depends on any reads but with no reads i probably fold
     
  11. cowhead72 cowhead72 is offline

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    Oct 13th, 2008 (10/13/2008 3:43pm) in reply to kxywrx

    yes, it looks like an easy fold but without working out the math take a look at the stacks that are in the pot.
    Can you shove and still make a profit on the hand? If I remember right you have everyone in the hand covered by 9k ish, you could take a pretty big side pot and still profit on the hand and also,theres always the chance that a couple of these guys have AK. reducing their outs.
    Worst case scenario is that you lose to the guy that has 20k and still have 9-10 x bb's.
    It may look a little sick but I think I'd be shoving this here.
  12. leftygrove leftygrove is offline

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    Oct 13th, 2008 (10/13/2008 3:56pm) in reply to tmac2424

    Oh snap, I didn't see kermit had actually 17.5 BB's. I might lean toward folding here then; still depends on kermit's image.
  13. tmac2424 tmac2424 is offline

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    Oct 13th, 2008 (10/13/2008 4:12pm) in reply to leftygrove

    well the results are (if it matters) is i ended up folding and the initial raiser folded as well leavin the two other guys with 55 and 88 respectively
    Thread Starter
  14. lordxixor101 lordxixor101 is offline

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    Oct 13th, 2008 (10/13/2008 4:12pm) in reply to tmac2424

    3 raises in this hand. I wouldn't heavily worry about Lazzycat, his range is wide. But, kermit could have a monster hand and ddagio could have lots of hands here.

    In these spots, you are usually up against 2 aces and a pair here. So, if someone has AK, it isn't quite as scary, he probably has lost outs. But, this can easily be an AA/KK/QQ lurking here.

    You've got chips here, you aren't desperate to make a move. Sure, if you push and win, it's a monster type hand that can propel you deep in a tournament. With KK, I think this is a snap push. If you lose this though, your not crippled, but you are now in the needs to make a move spot (and people might put you on tilting, which could make it harder to make a move with nothing).

    I'd be stressed here, but I think with your stack, I'm folding. If I had 20k in chips, I'm probably putting them in there for a shot at the big stack, but with your current stack, you just don't need to make this move.
  15. bluefin bluefin is offline

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    Oct 13th, 2008 (10/13/2008 4:21pm) in reply to tmac2424

     
    Originally Posted by tmac2424 View Post

    well the results are (if it matters) is i ended up folding and the initial raiser folded as well leavin the two other guys with 55 and 88 respectively

    That is horrible.

    I still think you made the right move. I would never have thought someone would pot commit themselves with a 4-bet holding 88.
  16. KA_Spirit KA_Spirit is offline

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    Oct 13th, 2008 (10/13/2008 4:38pm) in reply to bluefin

    Something else to think about here when folding/shoving the QQ is how the table has been. If you have been winning tiny pots....blinds/antes....a few raises here and there it may be a fold. The re-raise which is the scariest range I believe doesn't have you covered, so I'd probably ship it in then go shove crazy if you are coolered. If you where at 30bb's and where winnings small pots pretty consistently and where risking oer 50% of your stack It would be a good fold.
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