Check out our brand new Local Poker Communities! Get updates and interact with poker players in your area.
Visit the United States Poker Community | Visit the California Poker Community | Read more about the Launch of P5s Local

folding AK preflop

Reply to Thread
  1. bwebster bwebster is offline

    Columbia, TN
    United States

    Posts: 224
    Joined: Dec 05

    May 21st, 2006 (5/21/2006 7:33pm)

    $20 180 man on stars. about 80 left, a little under average chip stack. Should I have called his all-in? or played differently from beginning? He said after hand he had JJ. First time I've ever folded AK preflop.

    pokerstars Game #5010550157: Tournament #25141302, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2006/05/21 - 19:27:25 (ET)
    Table '25141302 7' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
    Seat 1: Steke (1335 in chips)
    Seat 3: jjjafari (4330 in chips)
    Seat 4: raydawg58 (2620 in chips)
    Seat 5: elev8ted (5275 in chips)
    Seat 6: LPyle04 (3865 in chips)
    Seat 7: tnutz21 (7605 in chips)
    Seat 8: PADiesel (2510 in chips)
    Seat 9: spilt6 (2035 in chips) is sitting out
    jjjafari: posts small blind 50
    raydawg58: posts big blind 100
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to PADiesel [Kc As]
    elev8ted: folds
    LPyle04: raises 200 to 300
    tnutz21: folds
    PADiesel: calls 300
    spilt6: folds
    Steke: folds
    jjjafari: raises 4030 to 4330 and is all-in
    raydawg58: folds
    LPyle04: folds
    PADiesel: folds
    10 Of Spade$ is connected
    jjjafari collected 1000 from pot
    jjjafari: doesn't show hand
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 1000 | Rake 0
    Seat 1: Steke (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 3: jjjafari (small blind) collected (1000)
    Seat 4: raydawg58 (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 5: elev8ted folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: LPyle04 folded before Flop
    Seat 7: tnutz21 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 8: PADiesel folded before Flop
    Seat 9: spilt6 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
  2. Crazy Gauge Crazy Gauge is offline

    Greensboro, NC
    United States

    Posts: 319
    Joined: May 06

    May 21st, 2006 (5/21/2006 7:36pm) in reply to bwebster

    If you aren't going to call with AK, what will you call with?? Tournies are about going for the win, not trying to survive...........I say call here
  3. thefranchise5 thefranchise5 is offline

    KY
    United States

    Posts: 162
    Joined: Jun 05

    May 21st, 2006 (5/21/2006 7:39pm) in reply to bwebster

    After smooth calling I would say its a must call, based on the fast moving blind structure and your stack size. I would say that a reraise is needed preflop with AK, and at your stack you might as well have just moved in.
  4. bwebster bwebster is offline

    Columbia, TN
    United States

    Posts: 224
    Joined: Dec 05

    May 21st, 2006 (5/21/2006 7:40pm) in reply to bwebster

    I folded because I figured at best I was a coinflip, and he easily could have had aces or kings too. Didn't really have a read on the guy I was just moved to that table. So you're saying you would never fold AK preflop?
    Thread Starter
  5. Zota15 Zota15 is offline

    Orlando, FL
    United States

    Posts: 1,471
    Joined: Jan 06

    May 21st, 2006 (5/21/2006 7:42pm) in reply to bwebster

    I dont really mind a fold here. He is going to have a pair like 90 percent of the time and probably AK the other 10 percent.
  6. bwebster bwebster is offline

    Columbia, TN
    United States

    Posts: 224
    Joined: Dec 05

    May 21st, 2006 (5/21/2006 7:48pm) in reply to bwebster

    I actually ended up doubling up the next hand.

    Crazy I know it's about going for the win and not surviving but isn't it better to wait for a spot to put all your chips in preflop where you're not hoping for a coinflip unless your chip stack is in panic mode?
    Thread Starter
  7. BigGunX BigGunX is offline Mr OT Party

    Williamsburg, VA
    United States

    Posts: 21,287
    Joined: Feb 05

    May 21st, 2006 (5/21/2006 7:49pm) in reply to bwebster

    I never fold preflop. Ever. I don't care what the cards are.
     
  8. yomamanodros yomamanodros is offline

    Boulder, CO
    United States

    Posts: 1,691
    Joined: Aug 05

    May 21st, 2006 (5/21/2006 8:05pm) in reply to bwebster

    Don't worry about what Crazy said. You have to fold AK preflop sometimes. If you are convinced that he has a pair and maybe a monster and it is for all of you chips just let it go man. The more you play the more you will recognize places where AK just has to be folded preflop. If he has any pair at all you are an underdog and there are many better places to get your money in the middle than as a 45/55 underdog. You are never happy about it, but folding AK is about trusting your reads. It sucks even more when no one else calls and you don't get to see the hand but you just move on. It will be your first of many times folding AK preflop if you play a lot.
  9. Bubble_Bath Bubble_Bath is offline

    Auckland
    New Zealand

    Posts: 76
    Joined: Jan 06

    May 21st, 2006 (5/21/2006 8:11pm) in reply to bwebster

    I would have reraised the original raiser all in.

    As played, call the all in.

    With deep stacks you can afford to play AK more conservatively, but in this spot you have to gamble IMO.

    Also, you may have the best hand, Villan could easily have AQ or AJ or less if he is making a squeeze play.

    AK is a premium, play it aggressively, winning with AK is one of the keys to winning a tourney IMO.
  10. Arobinson11 Arobinson11 is offline

    Round Rock, TX
    United States

    Posts: 1,924
    Joined: Feb 06

    May 21st, 2006 (5/21/2006 8:58pm) in reply to Bubble_Bath

    The mistake I see isnt in folding to his all in, its in not reraising. After you called you almost have to fold to his all in. You only have committed 300 to the pot and you are sure that you are at best in a race. The advantage with ak is preflop fold equity and you lost that by smooth calling.
     1
  11. Bubble_Bath Bubble_Bath is offline

    Auckland
    New Zealand

    Posts: 76
    Joined: Jan 06

    May 21st, 2006 (5/21/2006 11:32pm) in reply to Arobinson11

    I agree that he should have reraised pre flop...

    I strongly DISagree with the idea that he is at best a coin flip, you will see AQ and AJ here alot more than you might think, plus theres alot of dead money in the pot, so easy call i think.....
  12. the_schmenx the_schmenx is offline

    Burgh
    Netherlands

    Posts: 5,194
    Joined: Jan 05

    May 22nd, 2006 (5/22/2006 12:10pm) in reply to bwebster

    I think you could go either way there. I don't see the straight ALL IN as a sign of strength, probably along the lines of JJ or AK.
  13. POT BULLY POT BULLY is offline

    Tampa, FL
    United States

    Posts: 557
    Joined: May 05

    May 22nd, 2006 (5/22/2006 12:17pm) in reply to bwebster

    Looks like a classic Squeeze so he could have a larger range of hands. When a player tells me what he had its usually not true. I call here most of the time in a tourney but GLD.
  14. estay estay is offline

    Posts: 641
    Joined: Apr 06

    May 22nd, 2006 (5/22/2006 1:53pm) in reply to POT BULLY

    Classic squeeze if the player even knows what that is.......

    If your position in relation to the tournament was above average, this is an easy fold in my opinion seeing as how you just entered the table....not to mention, were there many people to act after him? If you are below average and you get reraised after a call, you should call. The other guy could just as well have had AK or AQ or a smaller pair....and since AK always hits when you're behind on stars, you would have won.
  15. timzc1 timzc1 is offline

    Vancouver
    Canada

    Posts: 2,262
    Joined: Jan 06

    May 22nd, 2006 (5/22/2006 2:00pm) in reply to estay

    with 20 BB AK should be played like its the solid premium hand it is.

    re raise all in over top of the original raiser.

    Now if you had 50 BB, and you get re raised all in by another massive stack, sure be willing to fold AK, but I play AK aggressively and I think it is worth playing aggressively.

    --tc
  16. Adam Adam is online now Emperor

    Atlanta, GA
    United States

    Posts: 12,629
    Joined: Dec 04

    May 22nd, 2006 (5/22/2006 2:21pm) in reply to bwebster

    With the number of chips in the pot at that point, skipping a "coin flip" is a relatively large mistake in itself. Your stack was also not big enough to wait around for a better situation. You're in a $20 tournament, and given the action to you, I'd say it's something like:

    5% he has AA *huge underdog*
    5% KK *just worse than 2-1 dog*
    10% he has AK *split*
    50% he has a pair QQ or below *very small underdog*
    20% he has a weaker A or K *better than 2-1 favorite*
    10% he has two "live cards" *3-2 favorite*

    Without doing the specific math here, for purposes of time and post length, just look at what you've got---30% of time time, you've got a clear favorite, while only 10% of the time, you're a clear dog. It's clear that even with no moneyin the pot, it's a winning play to call. The fact that you're getting around 1.4 to 1 to call makes it an easy call, I think.

    No one is trying to say to never fold AK preflop, simply that in this situation, it's probably a bad idea. You're guaranteed a heads up showdown, and there's no information that's at all convincing of anyone holding AA or KK. You've got the proper odds to call, even if it's a guaranteed "coin flip," but you're likely closer to 55% to win against his range. Your stack is also far from enviable at this point, you definitely can't afford to miss out on good opportunities to gamble. I'd make this call in a heartbeat.

    BTW, all that said, I would have just moved in over the raise preflop. I don't like smooth calling with AK, especially when not in a deep stack situation.
     
  17. tonkatruck tonkatruck is offline

    Chicago, IL
    United States

    Posts: 509
    Joined: Mar 06

    May 22nd, 2006 (5/22/2006 4:04pm) in reply to BigGunX

    Ditto
  18. pariah pariah is offline

    United States

    Posts: 1,730
    Joined: Apr 06

    May 22nd, 2006 (5/22/2006 4:29pm) in reply to bwebster

    I play more 180's than is healthy. With 80 left and blinds 50/100 it means you're what, 8 minutes til 1st break? You really want to have at least $3k after first hour. It's better to look at stack:blind ratio than avg stack or expected stack size, but in some sense you need to realize you'll have to gamble sometime and trying to double up before going into 2nd hour is not a bad idea at all. His re-raise all-in overbet doesn't scream KK-AA at all. If you think it's a flip, go for it. But I wouldn't wet my shorts if he flips up ATs.

    But as everyone else has said, save yourself the tough decision and just re-raise PF yourself.
Reply to Thread

Similar Threads