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Fox's "see your hole cards" post

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  1. da_bill da_bill is offline

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    Aug 26th, 2005 (8/26/2005 2:05pm)

    Great article as always fox, and an enjoyable read.

    There is one method however which could be used to "see" another players hole cards. (I agree that it wouldnt be for sale of course..) It is quite feasible, and actually thinking about it further I'm not sure if I should post it. I'll assume if it is as easy as I'm imagining, it's already happening though, so here goes. Cal/Adam/Riley please do delete this if you feel the idea is dangerous and is not already known.

    This is a combination of a normal poker tracker/statistics package and a piece of spyware and a little networking.

    1st - there are packages that will sniff the incoming data to your own computer and display to you the upcards you are holding, the board cards, and your odds to hit draws, how your hand ranks vs all possible hands, etc... I toyed with one of these while playing play chips on UB long ago. I'm assuming these are still available.

    2nd - it has been estimated that 80% of all computers have spyware installed on them. This is likely accurate, and for the most part they're harmless and annoying. In dangerous cases they track keystrokes and submit them to a server for some nefarious character to sort through and hope to find credit card numbers, etc... In our example, the spyware would be downloaded to an internet explorer users computer without their knowledge while visiting one of many poker related sites.

    3rd - the spyware author would use code from the hole card sniffer package mentioned above. Each spyware client would, if that PC's user happened to play online poker on sites supported by the spyware authors sniffer, read the hole cards and send them to a server, or (if the author is a bit more amateurish) to the authors computer.

    The end result is that the author of the spyware would have live information on player holdings. Only a fraction of the playing population would happen to have received the spyware client, so the author couldn't hope to sit at a table where he knew the holdings of more than one or two players, but that alone would be an incredible edge. A crude implementation would just store the information in a sortable list by player alias, refreshed each second based on new feedback from the many spyware clients running, so the author could look at the list and join a table on his site at which any of his victims are playing. From there he just filters his list based on player name and watches it as he plays. voila.

    The ways to defeat this are twofold:

    first - the sites themselves need to encrypt their communications sufficiently that local port sniffing is near impossible. This will break the abilities of some more legitimate playing aids as a side effect. Unfortunately this isn't a lock-tight solution, as the spyware client could do "screen scraping" rather than analyzing the actual communications.. Actually thinking about it, this may be how the current live-stats packages are working, as it's likely a much easier approach than sniffing on the port.

    second - players would need to scrub their own computers and remove spyware religiously. This is no easy task and there are no tools available which do a thorough job. (spybot search and destroy is the best currently, and it's free). Srubbing your computer of spyware is a good idea regardless of whether this "hole card sniffer" idea is in use right now or not.

    GL!
    Bill
  2. oddman oddman is offline

    Augusta, ME
    United States

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    Aug 26th, 2005 (8/26/2005 2:08pm) in reply to da_bill

    man this is long.
  3. supermoves supermoves is offline invented poker

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    Aug 26th, 2005 (8/26/2005 2:17pm) in reply to da_bill

    da_bill....I agree with you about all but one point. There is NO way to stop this. There is spyware out there that lets you literally see what is on another persons computer screen. No packet sniffing, nothing the poker site could do to stop it. You can literally see the other persons screen in a small window. The hardest part of this whole thing is getting the spyware onto the computers of the exact people at your table. In fact, THAT is the part that makes it near impossible....comments?
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  4. HelenRNurse HelenRNurse is offline

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    Aug 26th, 2005 (8/26/2005 2:26pm) in reply to supermoves

    You'd have to prove that to me, Super. I'm going to go to another site & then come back here & you tell me what site I went to.......ok????? NOW!!!!!
  5. HelenRNurse HelenRNurse is offline

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    Aug 26th, 2005 (8/26/2005 2:27pm) in reply to HelenRNurse

    Ok, Super.........which one was it?????
  6. supermoves supermoves is offline invented poker

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    Aug 26th, 2005 (8/26/2005 2:35pm) in reply to HelenRNurse

    LOL I cant get the software onto your computer that fast...thats exactly the problem...not to mention that I dont have the program personally....but perhaps in college a "buddy" used it on his gf to see if she was cheating on him....a "buddy"...not me....LOL
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  7. HelenRNurse HelenRNurse is offline

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    Aug 26th, 2005 (8/26/2005 2:54pm) in reply to supermoves

    Yeah Yeah.....I knew there'd be some excuse LOL
  8. gamblingfun gamblingfun is offline

    Johnson City, TN
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    Aug 26th, 2005 (8/26/2005 4:45pm) in reply to supermoves

    yeah a "buddy" of mine used a simular program to a. get his gf email password. and b. to find out if she was cheating. Also there is a thing that u can attach to a computer itself that will relay everything typed into that computer.. another "buddy" of mine used one of these to get into a highschool teacher computer and take out the final exams.. shame on that buddy of mine, lol. peace
  9. PuertoKid PuertoKid is offline

    El Puerto De Santa María
    Spain

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    Aug 26th, 2005 (8/26/2005 6:24pm) in reply to da_bill

    Actually, encrypting the data (which I believe they already do) won't help. I can write a very small piece of software that, if run on your machine, can send me back your screen name and your hole cards using extremely little network traffic. I don't need to look at hand histories or do any screen scraping.

    In fact, i think I'll put this together this weekend as a sample...

    Now, how do I get it onto poker player's computers? Well, I start a poker related web site (pocketSixes.com)...and get some people with poor security hygiene to download. Eventually (probably quickly) someone will find it. But, like a crafty virus writer (I am not), I could make this thing self-spreading and very difficult to clean off a machine without a complete system reinstall.
  10. Fox Fox is offline

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    Aug 26th, 2005 (8/26/2005 7:11pm) in reply to da_bill

    That's interesting stuff. I know there are things that the sites do to prevent this sort of thing, and I have quite a bit of security on my computer, but it's still pretty scary. Here is a post from my site (Thanks DC5) that should help everyone improve their computer security.

    After doing some computer maintenance for friends and neighbors (most who play have online banking and/or poker accts), I was alarmed to find all the systems packed with viruses, spyware, and malware. While I'm sure most of you are fully educated about how to keep your PC secure from all this garbage, I feel compelled to throw something on the forum for anyone who might want to beef up their system.

    These are great sites to bookmark for computer help:
    www.langa.com (has a great free newletter, also an upgraded version for low cost)
    www.grc.com (Steve Gibson's Shield's Up and LeakTest > testing your security)
    www.spywareinfo.com (their forums will help you remove things you have trouble with and will review your hijackthis log)
    www.computerhope.com (helps you find your own solutions for general hardware/software issues)

    I recommend, at a minimum, you should have the following programs installed on your computer (most are free or have free trial versions):
    You must have a secure firewall and an up-to-date antivirus program. Additionally, look at installing these programs: WinPatrol, Webroot SpySweeper, SpyBot - Search & Destroy, LavaSoft Ad-Aware SE Personal.

    Other programs worth considering are Hijackthis (esp. if you are having problems/see spywareinfo above), SpywareGuard, and SpywareBlaster.

    You should be running regular (i.e. at least weekly) maintenance on your computer. Run the scans, clean out your temporary internet files, etc. And don't forget to check for software updates.

    Keep your information safe and secure!
  11. flex674 flex674 is offline

    Dover, DE
    United States

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    Aug 26th, 2005 (8/26/2005 7:33pm) in reply to Fox

    Security is an issue that is very important. I remember back in college a few of my buddies and I would often take software and download it to each others computers. Then while they were sleeping start messing with them (opening and closing their cd roms, surf web pages, amongst other things) only to freak them out. But we always were able to delete the software. But one thing I believe for sure is anything is possible. However, even if you were able to see your opponents whole cards it would still be as tough as it is now to play poker imagine all those bad beats your oppenent may recieve.
  12. da_bill da_bill is offline

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    Aug 27th, 2005 (8/27/2005 11:27pm) in reply to da_bill

    Hey Super!

    The trick wouldnt be hoping to have someone at your table whos hole cards you can see, the task is just to see who's hole cards you have visible, and go join them at a table. Basically if you could even get a few people to inadvertently download your virus, you could just go sit with them whenever you see them on.

    As the other posters indicated, really the only way to prevent this is good personal security; clean your system of spyware and you have no worries :)

    GL and thx for the feedback all!
    Bill
    Thread Starter
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