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OK, so I'm reasonably ranked and profitable long term on MTTs buying in direct up to $150. Yesterday managed to supersatellite in to the $2500 buying for just $20 and was travelling along quite nicely building stack up to about 7000 - got a badbeat back down to 5300 and then picked up AA....
I would really appreciate some comments and thoughts on 1. what you put this guy on here 2. do you fold/call/reraise/shove and why? I will post rest of hand after I have a few replies natch...
Oh and yes of course I played it badly! I don't need any smart arses to tell me so - but i am interested in learning and improving so I what to see if the thought process I went through later is the same as some of you better players would have gone through at the time!
Full Tilt Poker Game #5280301063: FTOPS Event #17 (37170264), Table 56 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:03:26 ET - 2008/02/16
Seat 1: bigegypt (6,515)
Seat 2: Ayune (8,355)
Seat 3: mikeyb444 (9,872)
Seat 4: jim5432 (5,315)
Seat 5: _ILike2Raise_ (20,838)
Seat 6: AvertBet (4,600)
Seat 7: conslice (3,920)
Seat 8: HalcyonDays (3,008)
Seat 9: U_2Good4_Me (3,242)
HalcyonDays posts the small blind of 25
U_2Good4_Me posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jim5432 [As Ac]
bigegypt folds
Ayune folds
mikeyb444 folds
jim5432 raises to 150
_ILike2Raise_ folds
AvertBet has 15 seconds left to act
AvertBet folds
conslice calls 150
HalcyonDays folds
U_2Good4_Me folds
*** FLOP *** [6h 7c 6c]
jim5432 has 15 seconds left to act
jim5432 bets 250
conslice has 15 seconds left to act
conslice raises to 750
jim5432 has 15 seconds left to act
jim5432 calls 500
*** TURN *** [6h 7c 6c] [8h]
jim5432 checks
conslice has 15 seconds left to act
conslice has requested TIME
conslice bets 1,200 -
Posts: 174
Joined: Feb 07Feb 17th, 2008 (2/17/2008 8:40am) in reply to jim5432
3bet the flop, too many draws to flat there
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Posts: 36
Joined: Oct 07Feb 18th, 2008 (2/18/2008 12:55pm) in reply to jim5432
thx for replies. I thought immediately afterwards thatI should have 3bet the flop to see where I was at but having thought about it I came to same conclusion as Beck AA that stack sizes mean if he shoves I'm almost compelled to call.
Which leads me to wonder what to do when stack sizes and blind levels, which at the start of the hand seem relatively unthreatening, suddenly restrict your options to play post flop and leave you between a rock and a hard place as above. It seems to me that I am almost forced to shove his flop bet/fold or call/check/fold to a bet. Or am I totally off beam here???
I'm not so sure I played it badly by flatting the flop raise and shoving his turn bet now. I couldnt put him on a 6 after he call pre-, overpairs 99/10+ maybe out as no reraise pre-?, straights, well is he really playing 45 there? or 9/10 for a gutshot? A7clubs maybe, two high clubs, two high hearts maybe? It even plays like he might just be putting me on AK/AQ and a c-bet which he was trying to push me off?
Pity you dont have so much time to think about it at the time because you might even be able to narrow it down to perhaps 88 - which of course is exactly what it was! -
Posts: 753
Joined: Nov 07Feb 18th, 2008 (2/18/2008 1:34pm) in reply to beck_AA
i hate the whole "see where youre at" phrase.
even if he 3bets and villain shoves, does he know where hes at? the villain in this hand could be doing this with so many draws and overpairs, that the hero in this hand won't truly "know where hes at"
i hate ittttttttt -
Posts: 359
Joined: Jun 06Feb 18th, 2008 (2/18/2008 1:49pm) in reply to jim5432
Slow play equals slow loss. Personally I would have gone 6-800 pre, push out all the inconspicuous hands that so often hit and dominate a monster hand such as this. Once you let players in for 3xBB and (cheap but standard) you have dug your own grave. Even if he called the 6-800 pre bet, with that flop, villian still might have not given you credit for an overpair and with 2k or higher post push, he/she still might have ran with you to your demise. AA = strong pushes or insta fold. Success rate with this hand for me anyway I play it is probably around 60-70%.
Tough lucko! -
Posts: 5,485
Joined: Nov 06Feb 18th, 2008 (2/18/2008 2:22pm) in reply to rochustler
On the flop I think your ahead... I 3 bet/shove there as a flush draw is present... He might have an overpair here or openeded on turn.. gotta get it in here I think...
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Posts: 2,409
Joined: Mar 06Feb 18th, 2008 (2/18/2008 3:15pm) in reply to jim5432
3-bet flop to 1,900 or so, blind shove any turn that is not a club if he calls. Check-reassess if club hits.
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Posts: 174
Joined: Feb 07Feb 18th, 2008 (2/18/2008 3:54pm) in reply to jim5432
I should have been more specific. You've got him covered, 3 bet the flop around the 2500-3000 range with the clear intention of calling a reshove, not to see where you are at. Without good, specific knowledge of villian, that board offers no way to know where you are at. He could be playing a large number of hands that all look the same at this point, most of which you're ahead of, and your play could as easily be a cont. bet with AK as it is AA. So his read of you is also unclear. I'd have to assume he doesn't hold a 6 and hope I'm right, charge him full price to draw if that's what he's doing, and if I'm wrong just play short stack poker with what I have left.
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Posts: 15
Joined: Sep 07Feb 18th, 2008 (2/18/2008 4:09pm) in reply to jim5432
i think its fine to get it in on the turn thats a pretty big blank i dont see him with 45 here very often or maybe he has 910clubs still pretty safe to go with if he has u then gg but would try to get max in on flop or play it like u did and getting it in on a good turn.
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Posts: 1,483
Joined: Aug 05Feb 18th, 2008 (2/18/2008 4:16pm) in reply to just sick
is raising to 150 (3BB) enough in the higher buy in MTTs, especially with premium hands like AA, KK and QQ? i would think you would want to raise that up like 4-5BBs?
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Posts: 63
Joined: Oct 07Feb 18th, 2008 (2/18/2008 4:43pm) in reply to darkcheck_
What do ppl think of check raising this flop? There are only a handful of cards that help our opp (we aren't scared of any face card or any club too much since we have Ace of C), such as 9s 8s 7s maybe, if the opp is a decent player, he will look to c\r the flop with a lot of hands here. I mean I think the better line is to 3 bet\call shove, but what do you guys think of a C\R flop, (or bet most turns that are harmless and go from there) line? Or is it too fancy? Somehow it feels kinda wrong to get in 90 bbs there w AA, idk maybe I've been playing too much plo lately?
Cliff notes:
Usually 3 bet\call shove line, just wondering about the alternative described above. -
Posts: 21
Joined: Feb 08Feb 18th, 2008 (2/18/2008 4:49pm) in reply to Jack_Ace75
no. at this level im making it 3x..as levels increase standard raise is 2.4-2.8. im never opening for 5BBs
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Posts: 174
Joined: Feb 07Feb 18th, 2008 (2/18/2008 5:39pm) in reply to vanbasten9
The only thing I don't like about the c/r is the chance of him checking behind us and getting the turn for free. With a good read on the guy, i.e. knowing he'll semi-bluff a draw if checked to him, then a c/r could work. But without knowing that I'd hate to give him that card for free.
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Posts: 21
Joined: Feb 08Feb 18th, 2008 (2/18/2008 5:53pm) in reply to jim5432
the $2500 event wasnt very kind to me :(
Full Tilt Poker Game #5282820267: FTOPS Event #17 (37170264), Table 49 - 100/200 - No Limit Hold'em - 19:28:32 ET - 2008/02/16
Seat 1: Magistr_Ludi (27,986)
Seat 2: cashmaker81 (14,449)
Seat 3: stensture (12,082)
Seat 4: JaspudUF (4,564)
Seat 5: mordan (7,042)
Seat 6: Mutha Flushaa (5,385)
Seat 7: DDBeast (16,535)
Seat 8: Shifty1768 (19,663)
Seat 9: Davidp18 (8,506)
cashmaker81 posts the small blind of 100
stensture posts the big blind of 200
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Mutha Flushaa [Td Tc]
JaspudUF folds
mordan folds
cashmaker81: nh
Mutha Flushaa raises to 600
DDBeast folds
Shifty1768 folds
Davidp18 folds
Magistr_Ludi has 15 seconds left to act
Magistr_Ludi has requested TIME
Shifty1768: not really but figured u you for flush or st8 draw thanks
Magistr_Ludi calls 600
cashmaker81 folds
stensture folds
*** FLOP *** [8h Ts 5h]
Mutha Flushaa has 15 seconds left to act
Mutha Flushaa checks
Magistr_Ludi bets 458
Mutha Flushaa has 15 seconds left to act
Mutha Flushaa raises to 1,800
Magistr_Ludi has 15 seconds left to act
Magistr_Ludi raises to 21,000
Mutha Flushaa calls 2,985, and is all in
Magistr_Ludi shows [Ah Kc]
Mutha Flushaa shows [Td Tc]
Uncalled bet of 16,215 returned to Magistr_Ludi
Mutha Flushaa: hold
*** TURN *** [8h Ts 5h] [Js]
*** RIVER *** [8h Ts 5h Js] [Qh]
Magistr_Ludi shows a straight, Ace high
Mutha Flushaa shows three of a kind, Tens
Magistr_Ludi wins the pot (11,070) with a straight, Ace high
Magistr_Ludi: haha
Mutha Flushaa stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 11,070 | Rake 0
Board: [8h Ts 5h Js Qh]
Seat 1: Magistr_Ludi (button) showed [Ah Kc] and won (11,070) with a straight, Ace high
Seat 2: cashmaker81 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: stensture (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: JaspudUF didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: mordan didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Mutha Flushaa showed [Td Tc] and lost with three of a kind, Tens
Seat 7: DDBeast didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: Shifty1768 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: Davidp18 didn't bet (folded)
when do we get to see the rest of this hand? -
Posts: 1,352
Joined: Feb 06Feb 18th, 2008 (2/18/2008 6:24pm) in reply to jim5432
Presumably the reason you didn't get it in on the flop was that you were looking for a safe turn card, now you got one... so get it in. Also, in general I would almost always get it in on this flop, but now that you haven't please shove.
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Posts: 594
Joined: Jun 05Feb 18th, 2008 (2/18/2008 7:58pm) in reply to Run 4 Shelter
while this might be good advice in a rebuy, i don't think it is worth very much in a $2500 mtt unless you're looking to steal blinds at the 25-50 level.
Jim, in this situation, against a guy who also has an overpair, but has a short stack, you're kind of out of luck, and should chalk up a loss in chips to that. The only way to play differently is to 3-bet the flop, but after he raises your 150, he is virtually committed to the pot if your 3-bet is sensible ---up to 2100. . .
. . .the safe way to play the hand against a shorter stack like this guy is to just shove after he re-raises you. If he has a 6, you are going to have a tough time getting away anyways. . . this way, at least you are inducing calls from overpairs like 99-KK. . .and maybe even 88. . . by shoving you're buying the 900 in the pot that aren't yours, but limiting your equity with AA. the other player folds most of the time unless he has an overpair, or AK if he's really bad. . . just my thoughts. best of luck -
Posts: 36
Joined: Oct 07Feb 19th, 2008 (2/19/2008 4:04am) in reply to SowersUNCC
Really appreciate all the comments guys/gals. Maybe I didnt play it too bad after all. Agree now I probably should have shoved flop but happy that having flatted it then I did the right thing on the turn. Only other thing I may have considered was making it 4/5bb to go pre. Maybe...
Anyways this is how it played out...I got left pretty short - couldn't find a hand and in the end ran into AA in the blind when I did finally get to open shove to try and double back. Ironic huh!
Full Tilt Poker Game #5280301063: FTOPS Event #17 (37170264), Table 56 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:03:26 ET - 2008/02/16
Seat 1: bigegypt (6,515)
Seat 2: Ayune (8,355)
Seat 3: mikeyb444 (9,872)
Seat 4: jim5432 (5,315)
Seat 5: _ILike2Raise_ (20,838)
Seat 6: AvertBet (4,600)
Seat 7: conslice (3,920)
Seat 8: HalcyonDays (3,008)
Seat 9: U_2Good4_Me (3,242)
HalcyonDays posts the small blind of 25
U_2Good4_Me posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jim5432 [As Ac]
bigegypt folds
Ayune folds
mikeyb444 folds
jim5432 raises to 150
_ILike2Raise_ folds
AvertBet has 15 seconds left to act
AvertBet folds
conslice calls 150
HalcyonDays folds
U_2Good4_Me folds
*** FLOP *** [6h 7c 6c]
jim5432 has 15 seconds left to act
jim5432 bets 250
conslice has 15 seconds left to act
conslice raises to 750
jim5432 has 15 seconds left to act
jim5432 calls 500
*** TURN *** [6h 7c 6c] [8h]
jim5432 checks
conslice has 15 seconds left to act
conslice has requested TIME
conslice bets 1,200
jim5432 has 15 seconds left to act
jim5432 raises to 4,415, and is all in
conslice calls 1,820, and is all in
jim5432 shows [As Ac]
conslice shows [8d 8c]
Uncalled bet of 1,395 returned to jim5432
*** RIVER *** [6h 7c 6c 8h] [6d]
jim5432 shows a full house, Sixes full of Aces
conslice shows a full house, Eights full of Sixes
conslice wins the pot (7,915) with a full house, Eights full of Sixes
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7,915 | Rake 0
Board: [6h 7c 6c 8h 6d]
Seat 1: bigegypt didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Ayune didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: mikeyb444 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: jim5432 showed [As Ac] and lost with a full house, Sixes full of Aces
Seat 5: _ILike2Raise_ didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: AvertBet didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: conslice (button) showed [8d 8c] and won (7,915) with a full house, Eights full of Sixes
Seat 8: HalcyonDays (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: U_2Good4_Me (big blind) folded before the Flop -
I can't really see a 6 in his range and playing it so strongly. When i first saw this i thought 99 TT on the flop/ clubs. If your pushing anyways on the turn might as well get it in on the flop. no reason to give a free card.
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