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FTP $750K G Hand "Quiz" Question

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  1. HatesLosing HatesLosing is offline

    Stratford, CT
    United States

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    Oct 16th, 2007 (10/16/2007 4:01pm)

    Blinds are 25/50 in the FTP $750k G, and you have only 840 chips left because of some bad luck and some bad play on top of that (it took you longer to adjust to a super aggressive player on your left than it should have).

    The super donks at your table have already busted. Besides the super aggressive player on your left, everyone seems to be playing fairly standard poker. You have an aggressive, but not crazy, image.

    You're in the BB with T9s, UTG+1 (the super aggro player) makes it 200, MP calls, LP calls, everyone else folds, action to you. You have 840 in chips, there's 675 in the pot right now. What do you do?

    a) Fold, T9s isn't that strong and you're out of position.
    b) Call 150. This isn't a hand you want to lose many chips with, but the pot is laying you 4.5:1 with some implied odds if you hit your hand hard.
    c) Move in. If everyone folds you significantly increase your stack. T9s will also be getting decent pot odds and not be dead against many hands that will call you.
    d) Other (explain)

    Edit: All the stacks have you covered. Super aggro has 6200, MP has 2600, LP has 3000.
  2. threebanger threebanger is offline

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    Oct 16th, 2007 (10/16/2007 4:28pm) in reply to HatesLosing

    Calling seems weak and not likely to do anything but deplete your stack further. Moving in sounds great in theory. However, you didn't give the stack sizes of the other players in the pot. I think we can assume one of them will definitely look you up if you move in, and I don't like the chances there either against a hand that would call, even if we're not dominated.

    Honestly, despite the juicy odds being laid, I am choosing answer A, folding and saving my 840 and waiting for three things:

    1) The button, which we get the very next hand
    2) A better hand in an unraised pot in which I have real fold equity
    3) The blinds to double to the 50/100 level and give me a better return when I move in and everyone presumably folds, if not, I'm probably playing something a little better than T9s
  3. djelove djelove is offline

    Billerica, MA
    United States

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    Oct 16th, 2007 (10/16/2007 4:59pm) in reply to threebanger

    agree - fold every time. your chips are too valuable to invest anything more with 10 hi and a push will ALWAYS be called by someone.
  4. HatesLosing HatesLosing is offline

    Stratford, CT
    United States

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    Oct 18th, 2007 (10/18/2007 11:00am) in reply to HatesLosing

    FYI, kind of interesting the way this hand went...

    You actually decide to move all-in.

    The super aggressive big stack (UTG+1) takes a while to decide before flat calling, MP then gets a feeling that his fold equity is enormous if he moves in, so he does. He's right, both LP and UTG+1 fold, and he flips over 77. His hand holds up and you suddenly have time to have a "nice" sunday dinner.

    Edit: Of course, if your g/f didn't witness you bust out, you'd just register for the Mulligan and pretend it was the same MTT so you could skip the whole "nice dinner/quality time" thing.. hehe
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  5. areaman areaman is offline

    Madison, WI
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    Oct 18th, 2007 (10/18/2007 11:30am) in reply to HatesLosing

    i go with c, its time to build or bust and theres a lot of dead money in that pot.
  6. threebanger threebanger is offline

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    Oct 18th, 2007 (10/18/2007 11:49am) in reply to HatesLosing

    So the short stack moving in with 840 is correct b/c of the dead money, but UTG +1 folds (???) getting 3-to-1 to call and have a chance to knock 2 players out, with a hand mind you that was good enough to call the original push knowing 2 people had yet to act?

    I don't know what good the dead money is with what is very likely a dead hand. I still fold and hope for a better opportunity to open push in the next orbit.

    This answer leaves me like a young man coming in for a quickie. I feel so unsatisfied.
  7. adaptations adaptations is offline

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    Oct 18th, 2007 (10/18/2007 2:28pm) in reply to areaman

    In this situation I am liable to go with A,B or C, depending on my mood, whether I had a morning cup of coffee, if I want to have a "nice" dinner etc...

    What I would really like is a more thorough explanation on why B is a bad play, and where my small brain misses the boat when I push call. In my mind it's a passive, can't make up your mind decision to just call, however, it also allows you to stay alive if the flop is a complete miss, or to push if things are looking better after the flop (good draws, two pr, etc...) and the opportunity to chip up nicely. Is it bad because if you loose the chips you're left with are so few you have lost most of your fold equity, and instead should have used them with a better hand where you were at least the aggresor?

    So I'm rambling now... but the more I think about it, I totally understand folding, can wrap my mind around an all in, and am confused about the specifics that make calling good or bad. Thanks.

    Cheers,
  8. TLUBaseball08 TLUBaseball08 is offline

    Schenectady, NY
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    Oct 19th, 2007 (10/19/2007 11:31am) in reply to adaptations

    Well, the bad thing about flat calling is plain and simple: You are putting 25% of your stack at risk with 10 high. I don't think I need to say any more than that, but if I do, I would say that unless you plan on absolutely BURYING this flop with 10 high, what reason is there to get involved. You are about to see 7 or 8 free hands, and the chances of you seeing a -better-than-ten-high-pushable hand are almost 100%. Plus, if these players are super-aggressive, and the flop comes 10 4 2, who is to say that one of the ultra-aggressors didn't limp/call or raise pre-flop with a K10 or an A10? With the amount of chips you have in this spot, calling a raise out of position with 10 9 is just bad business.
  9. HatesLosing HatesLosing is offline

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    Oct 19th, 2007 (10/19/2007 4:17pm) in reply to threebanger

    Well, I believe that UTG+1 called thinking either the other opponents would fold preflop -OR- he'd at least get to see a flop for that price and have a possible opportunity to outplay anyone who called behind him. Clearly he didn't think one of the players behind him would re-raise or push or he wouldn't have called to begin with. In other words, his hand really wasn't good enough to call the original push knowing that 2 people were left to act unless he was confident that neither of those people would play aggressively--his read was clearly wrong.

    I'm not saying everyone's play was optimal here, that's for sure, but it was an interesting hand to me because I know various winning players that would disagree on what to do with this hand in this spot. The "answer" I posted is just what actually happened in the hand, and does not necessarily convey what the optimal play is by the various opponents.
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  10. HatesLosing HatesLosing is offline

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    Oct 19th, 2007 (10/19/2007 5:04pm) in reply to TLUBaseball08

    The counter-argument is this:

    1. You're not calling off 25% of your stack. You have 840 chips in the BB after posting so it's 150 to call. It's just under 18% of your stack you're calling.
    2. If you get a bad flop and have to check-fold, your M is still 9. It's not like you're dead if this scenario unfolds.
    3. You have very favorable pot odds. Even if your implied odds are completely null (which isn't the case), you stand to increase your stack by at least 80% if you call and win the hand. With any kind of implied odds, you stand to MORE than double up (on average) when you win the hand.

    Again, I'm not saying that I'm positive a flat call is the best play here, just that it's not obvious to me that calling is "bad business" because I can make a case for calling too.
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  11. dmtiii dmtiii is offline

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    Oct 19th, 2007 (10/19/2007 5:11pm) in reply to threebanger

    This answer leaves me like a young man coming in for a quickie. I feel so unsatisfied.

    possibly one of the greatest movies ever.
  12. Agas3141592 Agas3141592 is offline

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    Oct 19th, 2007 (10/19/2007 11:05pm) in reply to HatesLosing

    My thoughts:

    Your M is currently 11. But more importantly, if you fold this hand and wait, your M is going to drop to 5 on the next round of blinds (probably in the next 10 hands, or before the blinds get back to you again).

    You can currently call for 150 -- aka, 3x the bb here or 1.5x the next level BB.

    @ 50/100 your 840 in chips is a significant preflop raise, but the difference between 690 and 840 is rather small (at either level) -- considering for both amounts your only future move is all in pre-flop.

    That means you can either choose to commit 150 of your chips now at 4.5 X 1 odds and try to hit hard, or you can wait until later to commit 150 of your chips @ presumably all in call odds in the future.

    My Idea: Why not just call? Reraising is unlikely to steal the pot. With 4 callers, one person is going to look your puny 840 up... and possibly even more than 1. That means your going to put all your chips at risk with a 9/10 without knowing any information about the flop.

    Why not just call, you still have 640 left to either buy the pot, in a unique situation with a semi bluff (aka, flop of 782) while still getting ok odds when the 77 calls you, or to get value on a flop of 9 6 3 or to keep in case of a flop like AK3.

    By just calling here you minimize your chances of getting knocked out of the tourny right here, you maximize the chances of hitting the flop hard and getting even MORE value out of other players (IE flop is 78J and you get 3 callers for your all in), You SAVE enough chips that if you don't hit here an all in on the next move has the exact same Umpf as if you didnt call this bet.

    Re-raising seems foolish to me, because someone WILL call you, you WILL be at best 50/50 and I HATE putting my tourny on the line as a 50/50 if I don't absolutely HAVE to.

    Folding also seems stupid because, look, you have to find a spot to grab some chips, here is a perfect time to make 150 work @ 4.5 times odds with no discernable effect to your stack (look, the whole 18% of stack thing makes NO sense, it is simply more important that you only have ONE move either way on your next play which is all in, no matter if that 150 is in your stack or not).

    Those are just my thoughts on the matter.
  13. jay_shark jay_shark is offline

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    Oct 19th, 2007 (10/19/2007 11:50pm) in reply to HatesLosing

    I probably lean towards folding preflop .

    Even if you were deepstacked , I believe calling raises with suited connectors against 3 players is marginally playable oop . Since your stack is shallow , your s.c's has lost some of that value so it's not a bad idea you fold and wait for a better spot .
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