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Good call in the long run or total donk call?

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  1. mhoddi mhoddi is offline

    Western Sahara

    Posts: 11,715
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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 5:27am)

    FTP $50+5

    I mean he can't make it anymore obvious he has a flush draw. 201 started and roughly 75 left. I time banked it but wanted a big stack and felt I was ahead. Thoughts?

    Full Tilt Poker Game #3287833584: $7 500 Guarantee (24605158) Table 7 - 40/80 - No Limit Hold'em - 5:17:03 ET - 2007/08/18
    Seat 2: mhoddi (6 840)
    Seat 3: dpottz (3 105)
    Seat 4: hotsauce88 (3 320)
    Seat 6: Borkus17 (7 930)
    Seat 7: btroj (307) is sitting out
    Seat 8: PokerKingDJ (3 070)
    Seat 9: dh5616 (4 853)
    mhoddi posts the big blind of 80
    The button is in seat #9

    Holecards:
    Dealt to mhoddi [ ]
    dpottz folds
    hotsauce88 calls 80
    Borkus17 folds
    btroj folds
    PokerKingDJ folds
    russboy78 sits down
    dh5616 folds
    mhoddi checks

    Flop:
    [ ]
    mhoddi checks
    hotsauce88 bets 3,240, and is all in
    mhoddi has 15 seconds left to act
    hotsauce88 is feeling happy
    mhoddi calls 3 240
    hotsauce88 shows [ ]
    mhoddi shows [ ]

    Turn :
    [ ] [ ]

    River:
    [ ] [ ]
    hotsauce88 shows two pair Tens and Nines
    mhoddi shows two pair Nines and Fours
    hotsauce88 wins the pot (6 640) with two pair Tens and Nines

    SUMMARY:
    Total pot 6 640 | Rake 0
    Board:
    [ ]
    Seat 2: mhoddi (big blind) showed [ ] and lost with two pair Nines and Fours
    Seat 3: dpottz didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 4: hotsauce88 showed [ ] and won (6 640) with two pair Tens and Nines
    Seat 6: Borkus17 didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 7: btroj didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 8: PokerKingDJ didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 9: dh5616 (button) didn't bet (folded)
     
  2. AFink93 AFink93 is offline

    Norwich, CT
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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 5:32am) in reply to mhoddi

    Your good enough to fold that. Unless you like racing.. If you honestly put him on some kind of flush draw and obv overs I would think your calling with the worst hand? I dont have a Card Calculator. But you are probably behind? Maybe.. HMM. i dont know.

    EDIT P5's Calculator has you at 53% dog. .. FWIW
  3. New Shawboy New Shawboy is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 5:33am) in reply to mhoddi

    I don't like the call at all. I would generally be leading here anyway, but forget that he has a FD for a second....you don't really have anything. If you had a pair of jacks or queens or something, its a different story, but you have to assume he has two overs on you, and unless you can put him on Ah5h, you are behind.
     
  4. New Shawboy New Shawboy is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 5:35am) in reply to New Shawboy

    Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 4s 9h 3h
    cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
    5s 4c 463 46.77 527 53.23 0 0.00 0.468
    Th 6h 527 53.23 463 46.77 0 0.00 0.532
     
  5. Juanda 87 Juanda 87 is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 5:37am) in reply to AFink93

    Even if you put him on this, with only 4's you're almost postive he has overcards. Here is the #'s if you put him on exactly what he had, a flush with 2 overs. You might find diffrent #'s against his range there, since he might have A2 of hearts, only one overcard then, but then he has a straight draw aswell. But, for the specific situation.

    Hand 0: 46.768% 46.77% 00.00% 463 0.00 { 5s4c }

    Hand 1: 53.232% 53.23% 00.00% 527 0.00 { Th6h }

    So even if he turned his hand up on the table, it's a clear fold.
  6. TheWacoKidd TheWacoKidd is offline haters gonna hate

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 5:40am) in reply to mhoddi

    omg not hotsauce... he is sooo bad, he busted me out of a tourny the other day on some absurd shit...

    he is so terrible but you have to fold this and hope you catch him before someone else does...

    hotsauce pwnz
     1
  7. mhoddi mhoddi is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 5:41am) in reply to New Shawboy

    Keep in mind that if I hold I'm top 5-10 and can run over my table. I'm not simply calling b/c I think I'm ahead but for what my potential stack can do for me...and if I lose I still have over 3500 at 40/80. I understand I'm a 3% dog or w/e, that's not what I'm concerned about. More risk/reward.

    EDIT - not trying to sound defensive here at all, just explaing my reasoning which I didn't in the OP. If it's still a donk call flame away.
     
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  8. Juanda 87 Juanda 87 is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 5:43am) in reply to TheWacoKidd

    mhoddi - I see what you mean, but what is wrong with your stack now, there is no reason to gamble for these chips with a slight dog hand, when your M already allows you to control the table, if you have any chance of controlling the tabling, you already have enough chips to do it IMO.
  9. New Shawboy New Shawboy is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 5:47am) in reply to mhoddi

    You said in the OP that you wanted the big stack, and I understand thats why you made the call.

    You said you could run over your table with a big stack......if they are so weak, is this the kind of spot you want to be picking to get that stack? Thats why I don't like the call, FWIW.
     
  10. warden warden is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 5:47am) in reply to mhoddi

    Probably won't get away w/ running over the table anyway.
     2
  11. SaulGood SaulGood is offline SPAGETT

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 5:50am) in reply to warden

    why not? Id never heard of any of the monkeys at that table
     
  12. warden warden is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 5:51am) in reply to SaulGood

    The guy w/ immediate position is a star.
     2
  13. Juanda 87 Juanda 87 is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 5:53am) in reply to SaulGood

    Seat 3: dpottz (3 105)

    LOL, Saul just PWND you, I don't even know if it was intentional, I sure didn't realize dspottz was @ the table lol.
  14. virge virge is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 5:54am) in reply to mhoddi

    As demonstrated by his play, this is a total donkey tournament. It's also a really, really slow tournament that gives you so many opportunties to felt someone while miles ahead of them when they make their hand just as obvious as this guy did here.

    I have to admit that this is a leak that I have had occasionally. The guy makes his drawing hand so damn obvious, and it's almost like you want to punish him for it by calling off a huge push with either a horrible low pair or AQ high when the blinds are so low that there's not enough in the pot to be flipping either profitably EV wise or strategically.

    Also, besides the obv %'s listed above, there's a non-trivial percentage of the time that the villain here is donking with a made hand here either b/c he's a complet idiot with a big pp, or he has a made hand and is just petrified of flushes, in which case you're crushed rather than slightly behind.
  15. Admiral Admiral is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 5:55am) in reply to Juanda 87

    That was definitely one of those things that is infinitely funnier when someone doesnt point it out. Thanks though.
  16. warden warden is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 5:55am) in reply to mhoddi

    mhoddi has 15 seconds left to act
    hotsauce88 is feeling happy

    huge tell, call
     2
  17. Juanda 87 Juanda 87 is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 5:56am) in reply to Admiral

    Admiral - I think you just PWND me lol.
  18. virge virge is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 5:57am) in reply to warden

    srsly?
  19. Juanda 87 Juanda 87 is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 5:57am) in reply to warden

    Huge tell of what? That he has a 53% dog hand. Yeah call, okie.

    On another note, I didn't even realize he changed his emotion there. I must be high, things aren't going smoothly this thread.
  20. mhoddi mhoddi is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 6:04am) in reply to mhoddi

    OK, so apparently I'm a donk. ty for the replies. appreciate any others if they filter in.
     
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  21. virge virge is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 6:05am) in reply to mhoddi

    "Keep in mind that if I hold I'm top 5-10 and can run over my table."

    No. You. Can't. This is not a runoverthetable tournament until very near the bubble, and you're already chipped up a ton. You're probably what 1.5x average or more by now? You'll find a great spot to pick up 3K more chips in one fell swoop when you're 70/30, 80/20, or 90/10 ahead.

    The bubble period last so long with these slow blinds that if you can get big stack by the you really can run over the table. But that's a long time away. Just play solid poker and get your chips in substantially ahead.
  22. mhoddi mhoddi is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 6:12am) in reply to virge

    I disagree with the inability to run it over. FTP is my worst site as I don't play it very much and it's the only site I'm a losing player on (I think I'm down 1K-1500 there overall), but I FT'd this very same tourn about a week ago and got 4th by basically just standard ABC poker raising in position from 60 left on. As you can see from the HH above it's not exactly a stars $109.

    Anyway, we can agree to disagree on that note but obv the consensus is that is a donk call.

    thx again for the replies.
     
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  23. virge virge is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 6:14am) in reply to mhoddi

    I think a lot of us have done it. I actually had to reevaluate earlier this week because I was doing shit like that. I think it's some type of instinctual "fk your stupid donk play, I'll show you how transparant you are" response.

    What's even better is when you build the pot to give you the odds to call the all in that you KNOW is coming.
  24. virge virge is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 6:20am) in reply to mhoddi

    60 on down may be better closer to right than my 'very near the bubble.' I guess I mean you're not going to be running over the table at 40/80, 60/120, etc low blinds, you just need to find hands that you can extract value from.
  25. New Shawboy New Shawboy is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 6:59am) in reply to virge

    Good call. Thats the main reason I think the best play is to lead into this flop. It also makes it a lot harder for the other guy to run a bluff on you with AK or AQ, because he cant quite deny the odds.
     
  26. mhoddi mhoddi is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 7:37am) in reply to mhoddi

    Out 17th after this...

    Full Tilt Poker Game #3288162073: $7 500 Guarantee (24605158) Table 1 - 250/500 Ante 50 - No Limit Hold'em - 6:58:14 ET - 2007/08/18
    Danimsta: gg art
    Seat 2: woftam (21 188)
    Seat 3: clarkee1974 (18 940)
    Seat 4: mhoddi (18 550)
    Seat 5: datru808 (4 666)
    Seat 6: Danimsta (9 408)
    Seat 7: june32 (28 828)
    Seat 8: Stiffed_In (35 260)
    woftam antes 50
    clarkee1974 antes 50
    mhoddi antes 50
    datru808 antes 50
    Danimsta antes 50
    june32 antes 50
    Stiffed_In antes 50
    june32 posts the small blind of 250
    Stiffed_In posts the big blind of 500
    The button is in seat #6

    Holecards:
    Dealt to mhoddi [ ]
    clarkee1974: laters mate
    woftam folds
    clarkee1974: gg
    clarkee1974 folds
    mhoddi raises to 1,500
    datru808 folds
    Danimsta raises to 9,358, and is all in
    june32 folds
    Stiffed_In has 15 seconds left to act
    Stiffed_In folds
    mhoddi calls 7 858
    Danimsta shows [ ]
    mhoddi shows [ ]

    Flop :
    [ ]

    Turn:
    [ ] [ ]

    River:
    [ ] [ ]
    Danimsta shows a full house Kings full of Queens
    mhoddi shows two pair Kings and Queens
    Danimsta wins the pot (19 816) with a full house Kings full of Queens

    SUMMARY:
    Total pot 19 816 | Rake 0
    Board:
    [ ]
    Seat 2: woftam folded before the Flop
    Seat 3: clarkee1974 folded before the Flop
    Seat 4: mhoddi showed [ ] and lost with two pair Kings and Queens
    Seat 5: datru808 folded before the Flop
    Seat 6: Danimsta (button) showed [ ] and won (19 816) with a full house Kings full of Queens
    Seat 7: june32 (small blind) folded before the Flop
    Seat 8: Stiffed_In (big blind) folded before the Flop

    A while later I picked up 10 10 with ten BB's left. ep raised and I pushed, he had QQ and obv I missed.

    I hate FTP.
     
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  27. 85off 85off is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 2:03pm) in reply to mhoddi

    lol
  28. danimsta danimsta is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 6:18pm) in reply to 85off

    what a donk who deos that with KQ? o shit wait :-(
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