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Good Fold?

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  1. Wheres My Kiss Wheres My Kiss is offline

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    Jul 14th, 2012 (7/14/2012 7:51pm)

    I have been playing a lot of poker recently because school is starting soon and I won't be able to play nearly the volume during the year as I can in the summer, anyways, I had an extremely interesting spot last night. I think I made a tough fold, but I am curious to see what others have to say about the hand.

    We were playing in a 1k Guarantee on Merge ($5 buy in) I believe we were down to about 22 people left, and cash was 27, so this was not a money bubble squeeze or anything.

    UTG min opens. (starting stack 16.2k) (blinds: 500.1k This dude has made a lot of profit on the site after I OPR him, so clearly I know he is a very intelligent player. He had opened probably the previous 5 or 6 hands, basically just running over the table because nobody was playing back at him.

    I was UTG+1 and had A10o, clearly I was thinking about 3 betting in this situation, but even though he had opened a ton I didn't want to get in an awkward call off if he jammed cause I thought I was the second best player at the table so I flat. (starting stack 22.3k)

    Flop comes: 10 7 2 rainbow, and he leads out for a min 1k.

    I figured at this point that possible he didn't really know/care that I was a thinking player and I would think of what he would min bet with in that spot. I thought to myself even though he had been opening a ton that he could easily have an over pair in this kind of spot and was seeing how I would react to the min bet.

    I still decided that raising in this hand was still the best idea to define exactly where I was in the hand. So I made it 3k, he thinks for a couple moments and jams. I think about it for a little while and decide to muck.

    This hand has really been bothering me so I would enjoy to see some comments about what you think about the hand. Also, what type of hands other then over pair do you think he is rejamming here in this spot, possibly 89 is the only other one that I could possible think of.
  2. xxbossmanxx xxbossmanxx is offline The Boss

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    Jul 14th, 2012 (7/14/2012 9:28pm) in reply to Wheres My Kiss

    How much harder do you want to hit the flop? Seems like you were too busy opr'ing people to make a move.
  3. EricWRX EricWRX is offline

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    Jul 14th, 2012 (7/14/2012 9:53pm) in reply to xxbossmanxx

    AT is a trivial fold pre. I'd fold 88 and under and AJ and under for sure.

    AQ and 99 is borderline and probably folding vs most. AT just no other option but to fold.
    Edited By: EricWRX Jul 14th, 2012 at 09:54 PM
     
  4. xxbossmanxx xxbossmanxx is offline The Boss

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    Jul 14th, 2012 (7/14/2012 10:35pm) in reply to EricWRX

    ^Bad advice IMO. Besides the question he asked was about the fold post flop not what he should have done pre
  5. EricWRX EricWRX is offline

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    Jul 14th, 2012 (7/14/2012 11:38pm) in reply to xxbossmanxx

     
    Originally Posted by xxbossmanxx View Post

    ^Bad advice IMO. Besides the question he asked was about the fold post flop not what he should have done pre

    Are you saying the pre flop play is fine? Flatting with 16bb eff is a huge mistake here.

    The hand was an abomination in many ways...pre flop is def worth mentioning when he makes this mistake and doesn't notice it's wrong. Post flop is obv an easy call as played. He may make this raise expecting you to try to steal it and jam light. But given what he's opening utg here you're probably crushed.

    You aren't giving the opener enough credit. He has 16bb utg...His opening range is probably extremely tight regardless of how you perceive him. He's probably shoving most hands and just opening hands he wants action with. If he is as aggro as you say AQo and 99 is my cutoff. Anything else just seems spewy.
     
  6. xxbossmanxx xxbossmanxx is offline The Boss

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    Jul 14th, 2012 (7/14/2012 11:46pm) in reply to EricWRX

    Ya, I will fold A10 UTG in spots all the time but if you are going to come into the hand then spike TPTK I think you should follow through with it there.
  7. tyson219 tyson219 is offline Moderator

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    Jul 14th, 2012 (7/14/2012 11:57pm) in reply to xxbossmanxx

    You're 16bbs effective, this hands needs to play out preflop. With a full table left to act and an UTG open with 16bbs, ATo is an easy fold pre.

    As played, "raising to find out where you are" is a bad idea. First, if you're flatting pre with AT, what's your plan? Flop a straight or 2 pair or else fold??? Second, once the flop TPTK, either raise/call the flop or flat and make your decision on the turn. I can't really imagine folding at any point. In the end though the post flop advice doesn't matter since you should just avoid this spot.
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  8. Wheres My Kiss Wheres My Kiss is offline

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    Jul 15th, 2012 (7/15/2012 4:40am) in reply to tyson219

    I understand what you guys are saying, and 95% of the top this situation is a fold, I agree. The table dynamic allowed me to play this hand though, imo. This isn't something that I normally do, but against an aggro opener who could be opening a lot wider then A10 here imo I don't think it is absolutely awful. I believe at this point as well we were playing 7 handed. If I had aggro players behind me I do agree this is a clear fold. With people who aren't going to 3 bet frequently I don't think it is bad. I don't know, just my thought.
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  9. tyson219 tyson219 is offline Moderator

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    Jul 15th, 2012 (7/15/2012 4:58am) in reply to Wheres My Kiss

    No, not really.

    But for the sake of playing it out, ok fine...BUT if that's the case, then this is a snap get it in on the flop. You don't flat AT v. an aggro opener so that you can flop top pair and fold. You flat to keep his weaker hands in and then get the money in post flop. If you're ever folding to the villain when you hit TP, you should just be folding preflop.
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  10. razorpoker2002 razorpoker2002 is offline

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    Jul 15th, 2012 (7/15/2012 5:04am) in reply to tyson219

    always remember this in a MTT in order to live you have to be willing to die
     
  11. Wheres My Kiss Wheres My Kiss is offline

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    Jul 15th, 2012 (7/15/2012 6:16am) in reply to razorpoker2002

    Thank you guys for the advice. I do always appreciate it. I am always willing to hear peoples opinions because without advice from people I would never continue to improve.
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  12. bazingaking bazingaking is offline

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    Jul 15th, 2012 (7/15/2012 3:54pm) in reply to Wheres My Kiss

    I think some of the responses about folding the ATo don't bear in mind, or put much emphasis on what OP said about UTG's table image, and the fact that he was running over the table and opened for the last 5 or 6 hands. I think OP may be putting too much emphasis on villain's table image (and perhaps exaggerating that OP is 2nd best at the table because how can he be so realistically, since he has so few chips?) but if the villain is opening is as wide as you say, a shove is possible because AT would be good against that villain's range. But never flat because our stack size is much too small for post flop play.

    We can never know how wide villain was playing, only OP does, and to play on the safe side, since villain will still be opening tighter UTG, we can, and I probably would, fold here. However I would fold more for reasons not yet stated, namely that we can wait for a better situation to open raise against what you call a table which can be run over, from late position, or find an opportunity to squeeze. Since you say the table is pretty weak, and this is a borderline shove/fold decision, you should probably wait for better spots.

    In regards to the flop play, our stack is so small that we have to raise and be willing to go all in because we have top pair. It's an added bonus that the villain is aggressive and loose and therefore that we should be best. This is one of the best flops for AT and we have to go with it because we need the chips.
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