Hard to understand the logic

suicidal

So how is this guy related to you N 82? I can see your point there for the long run and all, but still in my mind that is not a very smart play.

I'm not tryin to give u a hard time but you have made about a dozen posts about him latley.

Is a smaller raise here not more appropriate then? Has the same effect but also gives him an escape route incase the BB wakes up with a monster. Not sure what the total of the pot was at that time but I'm sure it was not worth risking his whole stack or however much br had.

Maybe just me

Not related.

Typical old school VS new school argument here. Old school says late in a tourney its more valuable to knockout a player than to have a +EV chance at a few extra chips. New school says if you are +EV make the play end of story. Which is correct??? I wish I knew!! LOL

Again though like in the AQ hand that Todd posted the otrher day, when VERY VERY good players have a VERY VERY different opinions on a hand it usually means either way is OK for us mortals.

A.J.

This is one of the more controversial plays. I've gotten so much shit for this particular play its not even funny... I'll do it with 23 sooted sometimes and it really pisses people off (especially the big blind). Nothing wrong with it really, I wouldnt do it at a final table though.

...I think I am not understanding something.

all inning with a modest hand against a micro stack who is all in...

if the player you are trying to get out actually has a hand that they have disgused
OOOPS! (and you have to give some % chance to this, however slim).

AND

with the real garbage hands (108, 23 etc), sure you have two live cards, and might be in the 40% range to win a pot, but is your added chance of winning the few chips worth the risk?

--tc

i ll also do it basically everytime, unless i have a strong reason not to do so (i.e. the BB being a greater maniac than me). the above arguments (not the i dont understand statements) are all correct, you might not like and not use the move brasvage but i m also suprised that you say u dont understand it..

as i say when i try to teach some of my friends to play , when playing for first , every chip and every small edge counts

lol n82 :) thanx for the reminder:D

I call bullshit. Let's look at the plus and the minus side of the EV situation that you guys bring up.

First, everyone who knows me understands that I could give a rats ass about 9th, 8th, 7th, etc., I never play to "make the money", but I do respect making intelligent decisions.

The utg player only had 5300 chips. When he moved in, I had 4k posted in the BB, and gobboboy had 2k posted in the SB.

It folded to gobboboy and he pushes ALL IN FOR 47K TO WIN 11300. I had 60k in chips and had him covered, so we can agree the only hand I call him with is obviously a monster. As it turned out, I had half a hand and did not call. Had my other card been a click different, as in AA or AK, then gobboboy would have effectively risked his whole tournament with ten high.

Let's look at the other twist. Forget the "playing to win" ideology that somehow some people quote as justification to risk 47k to pick up a couple of BB's when you hold the infamous ten high. When you in effect triple up a player who was on life support by isolating with ten high, then simple game theory would dictate that you have increased your chance of losing by maintaining a greater number of players you must defeat to win the tournament.

I openly stated that obv. gobboboy must be a talented player, as he has done exceptionally well of late. But his aggression and ability to move chips is all the more reason he should flat call instead of risking so many chips to isolate. I personally do my best in tournaments when short handed as I instinctively play more pots and go into hyper aggressive mode, as I know that many players just can't change gears, and I am "quasi" protected by simply understanding that I am infinitely less likely to run into a big hand at a shorthanded table, and many players plain and simply tighten up at this stage. I also vary my raise sizes to try and keep my opponents off guard as to the strength of my hand, and allow myself to get away from a hand if need be...

As it turns out, Sinchron who had played solid all night and was not on my list of I hope he chips up players then went on a nice run and was the monster chip leader inside of 10 minutes. All this after he could barely go all in for more than the BB.

Forget the fact that exactly what could happen did happen, in that Gobboboy isolated and allowed a good player to triple up and survive and then prosper. I simply believe that a player as aggressive as Gobboboy would have been much better off allowing the table to lose a player and then use common poker FT tactics to chip up and pick his spots better.

Let's also remember another thing. I COMPLETELY ADVOCATE BETTING AND ISOLATING WHEN YOU HAVE A LEGITIMATE HAND. I remember a Paradise tournament when I had JJ in the sb, an utg player went all in, and a mid position player just called. I called also and the flop was T 8 3, very good for JJ. At this point I felt I had the best hand and led out, the other player folded AQ and proceeded to blast me for betting when a player was all in. Now this situation was a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SCENARIO. I bet to PROTECT a big hand and take down a nice pot that I already had chips invested, as I was playing to win and wasn't going to check it down and allow an overcard to hit.

In the situation from last nights tournament it was completely different. Gobboboy risked 49k to win 11k when he had a grand total of 2k invested, oh, and he also had Ten high. He tripled up a player who went on to accumulate a mountain of chips, who BTW, was directly on Gobboboys left. Where I come from this isn't good poker strategy.

But, I still respect you guys opinion, take mine and a dollar and you can get a cup of coffee, I still think it's a bad play.

Good luck all,

Chris.

I read the title and thought I would be seeing BR make a bad play......jokes on me I guess.

yup! i agree that this argument shows the difference between schools. what i would like to repeat is that both sides have valid points, and i dont agree with brasvage saying that he cannot see the purpose of raising (not pushing) in order to isolate..

very well said A.J. I think it is important to undestand here that there isnt really a right and wrong here, depends on each individuals value over knocking out a player vs +EV situations.

I guess I must be old school because, like you Wachovia, I completely agree with Chris' well articulated position. I also recognize that just looking at the hand alone this would be a +EV sitaution for thw SB. Looking at the overall tournament situation I would not push all-in - I would just call at most here.

Lou