No info on the Villain..Do we Bet/fold, bet/call, or check/call river. And is my bet/call correct on turn.

Ill post what I did after some responses..

okerStars Game #40231352593: Tournament #286010001, $1000+$50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2010/02/23 20:22:12 ET
Table '286010001 11' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Choron (5195 in chips)
Seat 2: gutshtallin (5190 in chips)
Seat 3: bledisloe (5045 in chips)
Seat 4: DonkCommited (4955 in chips)
Seat 5: Hikkespett (4830 in chips)
Seat 6: PURPLE"K"99 (5160 in chips)
Seat 7: nzaczac06 (6410 in chips)
Seat 8: pokerjamers (4515 in chips)
Seat 9: eidur888 (3980 in chips)
Choron: posts small blind 15
gutshtallin: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to gutshtallin [Tc Th]
bledisloe: calls 30
DonkCommited: folds
Hikkespett: folds
PURPLE"K"99: raises 60 to 90
nzaczac06: folds
pokerjamers: folds
eidur888: calls 90
Choron: folds
gutshtallin: calls 60
bledisloe: calls 60
*** FLOP *** [Qh 4h Td]
gutshtallin: checks
bledisloe: checks
PURPLE"K"99: checks
eidur888: checks
*** TURN *** [Qh 4h Td] [As]
gutshtallin: bets 300
bledisloe: raises 300 to 600
PURPLE"K"99: folds
eidur888: folds
gutshtallin: calls 300
*** RIVER *** [Qh 4h Td As] [9s]
gutshtallin: bets 1150
bledisloe: raises 1150 to 2300
?????

Now what? I decided to lead river because I dont really see any bluffs in his range ever, and with a set of tens here I figured to have the best hand. I didnt want to lose value from 44 or any two pair combinations. Plus I dont think he ever raises worse than KJ when I lead.. Because i would play KJ the same way sometimes... Im not one for hero folds ever but does he ever not have KJ??

******I folded to the snap min raise on river, and after thinking thru this hand for a while. I think just c/c is prlly the easiest way to play. If this were a cash game hand and we were much deeper or I had reads I think valid points can be made for other lines. However vs a random its prlly easiest to c/c and get to showdown. I dont think im losing much value.

I like the call on the turn. I check the river and reevaluate if he bets, assuming he does. A bet in the range of 600-800 I would c/r. If he bets in the range of 801+, I just call.

Yeah bet call on turn seems right, and you have to check and pay off on the river too. Only KJ is realistically beating you. He could have some 2 pair like AT, QT, AQ, etc.

Most likely than not i'd say he has 2 pair. If he has KJ, I don't think you can get away from this with blinds still this small and with this amount of chips.

I think we have to lead on the flop for a couple reasons - given your lack of position, 4 way pot and draw heavy ranges, I would probably make it 275 for value. After alot of thinking, this is all I can really contribute given the hypothetical nature. Eitherway I think I am getting them in on the turn, but I feel we to make the villans pay to on the flop since it is a 4 way pot and a very draw heavy board.

 

Originally Posted by Gags30

i'd just c/c. he's most likely betting whatever he raised on the turn, whether it be a better or worse set or two pair or a straight, so just c/c. or you could get crafty and c/r/f

I like this. Even though his line looks like KJ I am not B/F to the min raise on the river. The price is too enticing for me. Even if he has KJ 60% of the time you are getting the right price to call.

Oh and +1 to the donk lead on the flop, but I donk-lead in a decent amount of situations.

 

Originally Posted by unlukyduck82

well i never play these stakes but this hand had me interested. when i first read it i thought i would have potted on the flop with the draw heavy board and out of position. is that such a horrible play? u said donk lead on flop? when u lead the turn and he min reraises i would flat then i would c/c river and be good vs top 2

Ok..well if you plan on him having top 2..then you should be betting your hand for value, and not bluff catching with the top of your value range.Especially when i feel he is bluffing close to 0% of the time. These were my reasons for leading the river. I wanted to get a large bet in on river to get paid by 44 or any two pair..and not chk call 600 on river and have him show me aq.

Another reason why i kick myself for not reading forums a LONG time ago..you get some of the worlds top players showing sick hands..and other top players chiming in on how they would play it.

all that aside..Another min. raise?!? I dont see how he can not have KJ here almost 98% of the time...So sick.I mean what else could he have here..im figuring 4 hands.... 44-QQ?-AA?(if so he played it like a sicko) and KJ? Theres no way hes got a busted flush draw here is there?????

Gross spot is right. I definitely really like the river bet once you decided to just call on the turn. However I think you have to take that route with the intention to bet/fold the river. Therefore I think it has to be a fold. I really think he turns up with KJ here a high percentage of the time. Depending on him as a player, I just can't imagine him putting you on anything other than some sort of big hand here with your line so I can't really see him raising the river with 44 or AQ or some kind of stupid hand I think he has to have it.

 

Originally Posted by Pghfan987

The price is too enticing for me. Even if he has KJ 60% of the time

How about if he's showing up with KJ 95%+?

A seemingly-random opponent making two min-re-raises into two leads on two streets in a row, on a board with that texture, it seems improbable to me that he is EVER showing up with any holdings aside from KJ. I'd say give him <5% of room for awfully played sets or AQ/A10, although as I said, I highly doubt it.

i dont see how your losing value from 44/2p combos if hes going to bet them himself and u cant stand a raise if u lead.

 

Originally Posted by pikappraider78

I really dislike the flop lead... I dont get why people are reccomending that. What hands are we doing this with here then? are we ever flat leading into 4 ppl oop with air or 1 pair..... no this polarizes our range when combined with the flat pre

What types of hands are you c/r this flop with? I don't think "polarizes" is the right word; unless you only lead the flop with sets and air?

 

Originally Posted by Pghfan987

What types of hands are you c/r this flop with? I don't think "polarizes" is the right word; unless you only lead the flop with sets and air?

polarize might not be the right word.... but i think check raising keeps our range open and wider then leading does. check raising we can have 2 pair, sets, straight draws, flush draws, we might be percieved as having top pair even and air (non zero percent of the time). The lead minimizes the gaps in our range and its more sets, 2pairs air only imo

im not fishing for reads on ur game or anything pghfan but honestly are you really leading wider then a check raise here?

Folding this river is ABSURD. This is way closer to a 3bet on the river than fold. You're getting like 3.5 to 1 and you're ahead of a ton of his value range

 

Originally Posted by UhhMee

How about if he's showing up with KJ 95%+?

A seemingly-random opponent making two min-re-raises into two leads on two streets in a row, on a board with that texture, it seems improbable to me that he is EVER showing up with any holdings aside from KJ. I'd say give him <5% of room for awfully played sets or AQ/A10, although as I said, I highly doubt it.

I want to agree with this, but I think he shows up with 2pair hands more than you think. Aside from that arent we losing value by not leading river?
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Originally Posted by jordankickz

Folding this river is ABSURD. This is way closer to a 3bet on the river than fold. You're getting like 3.5 to 1 and you're ahead of a ton of his value range

I have to strongly disagree here jordan. It doesnt really matter what im getting to make the call when his range to snap min raise a close to pot size bet on the river is basically only KJ. From my experience, these types of snap raises are never AQ or 44. Its not like KJ is some tough hand to put me on either, its pretty blatant that KJ is the nuts on this board and this early I highly doubt he raises anything worse. Also by his timing of the raise, he would at least think about it for a couple seconds with any other value hands.

Its def possible I'm giving too much credit here, but Ive played enough hands to know when im beat. And I definitely got that vibe on this hand. Because of the fact that he is a random and MAYYYY have a worse hand a very small % of the time leads me to think that chk/call might be better than bet/fold. I still think its very very close. I just dont think this can be a bet/call ever, without some info on the villain.