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  1. This is a 180 Man Tournament On Stars in Level 1. Please critique Part 1 of my hand. I will follow up with Parts 2-4 after I get a few responses.

    Seat #5 is the button
    Seat 1: Greffman (670 in chips)
    Seat 2: FG13 (2660 in chips)
    Seat 3: zoozoopetals (1610 in chips)
    Seat 4: LuciusSweet (1420 in chips)
    Seat 5: gidders (1360 in chips)
    Seat 6: NorCalKen (1310 in chips)
    Seat 7: All2Hard (1270 in chips)
    Seat 8: Broseff21 (1470 in chips)
    Seat 9: TaTonk (1730 in chips)
    NorCalKen: posts small blind 10
    All2Hard: posts big blind 20

    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to gidders [Qh Kh] - I'm on the button with 1360 chips.

    Broseff21: folds
    TaTonk: folds
    Greffman: folds

    FG13: calls 20
    zoozoopetals: calls 20


    LuciusSweet: folds

    gidders: raises 100 to 120

    NorCalKen: folds
    All2Hard: folds

    FG13: calls 100
    zoozoopetals: calls 100

    *** FLOP *** [7h 4h 6h]

    FG13: folds (sick read)
    zoozoopetals: checks
    gidders: ??????????

    Any comments on my PF play, and what I should do on the flop here is welcome/encouraged.

    Thanks.
    Add gidders to Rail
  2. A continuation he prob has two overs like you or maybe Ax, you got second nut draw with two overs, I see a 1/2 pot sized bet would be enough.....
    Add 55Allin55 to Rail
  3. I have 2nd nut flush.
    Thread StarterAdd gidders to Rail
  4. Gidders respond to my post
     
    Add gamaitec to Rail
  5. i maybe weak, but id still make 2/3 pot bet or so fearing the Ah draw to the nut and also masking your hand a little.
    Add phatcat to Rail
  6. pf looks fine to me--it's what I'd likely do.

    I'd probably bet about 1/3 to 1/2 the pot for 2 reasons: 1) I want to build the pot; 2) hope that zoo would see it as weakness and come over the top to bluff the flush or go all in on a flush draw. if he has the A high flush he's going ot stack me, but I'm not worried about that.

    Another option is to overbet the pot a little. This may look like a bet that is afraid of the flush and get someone to come over the top. I think, though, that the smaller bet is usually more effective in getting someone to come over the top.
    Raise
    Add PuertoKid to Rail
  7. Lead out for 1/3 of the pot... your only going to get action against A or any misc. fish that are calling to see what u do on the turn. You want to get some money in the pot, and there's really no reason to slowplay unless you are on a very agressive table.
    Raise
    Add Sooted57 to Rail
  8. It's Level 1 so i really don't have any reads other than what I normally know about players at the 180 mans.

    Well, I checked behind him.

    *** FLOP *** [7h 4h 6h]
    FG13: folds
    zoozoopetals: checks
    gidders: checks

    *** TURN *** [7h 4h 6h] [7c]

    zoozoopetals: bets 60
    gidders: ??????

    Now what? The pot is 390 on the flop and gets checked through. His bet makes the pot 450... What do I do?
    Raise
    Thread StarterAdd gidders to Rail
  9. Gids,

    Pre-flop move here is kinda whatever a player feels like. If you're comfy with this move pre-flop in this situation, then I'd say that's the correct move.

    This is all so generic since you're the only one who can actually have a feel as to what's going on at your table, so it's extremely difficult to try to judge something by just looking at the Hand History.

    Generically speaking, and while trying to use some my past experiences to understand this situation, I first notice that your opponent called a limp, so I would normally take him off of any pocket pair TT & above at that point. Of course, there's always a chance that our intuition is completely off and we wind up as goats, but I don't think I could put him on a pocket pair of TT or above in this particular situation.

    This guy has you slightly covered in chips, which could always mean he's willing to call the pre-flop raise with a pocket-pair in hopes of flopping a set. With these 3 low cards on the board, it would be possible he's slow-playing a set... so I'd like to outline the probabilities of what I think I'm against here.

    Most Probable: I would say he's holding a pocket pair of 88 or less, but I truly believe that if he were holding an overpair to this board, that he would've bet out as the agressor on the flop, but he didn't. So this narrows it down to either a set or an underpair. So I would say it's most likely he's holding a pocket pair of 77, 66, 55, 44, 33, or 22... all of which you have dominated.

    Also possible #1: Ace-rag seems like a great possiblity here too, and we'd just LOVE him to have a hand of A5 (as long as neither of those are hearts), since he'd be drawing completely dead at this point, and we could just slow-play it and see if he can catch up a little and bet into us.

    Also possible #2: I guess we'll have to at least consider he's holding Ah, simply because we want to be prepared if another heart hits the board. I think the most important thing is to already have some options in mind just in case a 4th heart comes on the turn (or river). The other thing I would want to be prepared for is if the board happens to pair. Check, raise, fold, sit out... whatever, that part of it doesn't really matter. What matters here is that the player (you, in this situation) makes the appropriate move and decision based on what he/she feels is correct. Being prepared (and being able to live with your decisions afterwards) would be key in this hand, in my opinion.

    Also possible #3: Suited Ace of Hearts (LOLOL, this would suck). No way of telling this one at this point. But that's just one of those things is he happens to have it. We'll just have to get burned by this one probably.

    My decision: There's no way I'm checking this, because I just GOT to know some of the possibilities I'm up against. The last thing I want to be doing is feeling my way in the dark if a scare card comes on the turn. I want some information NOW, not on the turn or river where things could get out of hand. So I bet 250-300 (pot is about 400, right?).

    I guess a lot of people would advise you to just sit on this one and wait for the turn, but I can't see a lot of hands that would call our bets on the turn or river, if they won't call this bet on the flop. My point here is that I just don't think there are many hands that this guy could possibly have where we'd lose value or expectation by betting out in this spot. It seems highly likely that he would re-raise our bet all-in if he happens to have an overpair, a set, or a pair with an overcard Heart. A bet of 250-300 here seems very appropriate, in my opinion.

    I'm interested in seeing how this one plays out. Of course, there's always the great chance that I'm hopelessly off-track here, especially considering that I'm not at the table and feeling the action as it's happening, and also because I run out of fingers & toes to count my mistakes daily. I look forward to the next part...

    dhubermex
     
    Raise
    Add dhubermex to Rail
  10. Put in the biggest raise you think he will call. The goal is to build the pot as much as possible on each street so that he will call a bigger bet on the next street due to pot size. That's why I think it was a mistake to check the flop.

    I'd probably raise to 180 here.
    Raise
    Add PuertoKid to Rail
  11. raise to 350-400, dont want him to catch a cheap boat or the nut flush, you want to get some $$ in the pot becasue you have to th ink you have the best hand and u need to get some better idea of what he holds.
    Raise
    Add phatcat to Rail
  12. Well, I just saw your decision to check behind him... so now we have the turn.

    This is precisely why I would have bet out on the flop, simply because I REALLY want to be able reduce the amount of possible hands my opponent could have.

    But, thankfully, our opponent has given us a wonderful opportunity to ask him a question here, so this would seem like an elementary raise now. If I'm correct, the total pot is around 450 chips now, so I'd just go ahead and raise his 60 to about 200-300 here and let him tell me what he thinks about it.

    Plus, being prepared now becomes even more important because if our opponent calls this raise (or re-raises all-in), we're gonna have to do some soul-searching. So once again, we try the educated Guessing Game....

    Most Probable: This sure seems smells like a rookie Feeler Bet from a weak-tight player who has an OVERCARD Heart in his hand. We're still guaranteed victory as long as that heart isn't the Ace of Hearts.

    Also Possible #1: A Feeler Bet with his pocket pair of 55, 33, or 22, in which case our opponent is now drawing to 4 outs on the river.

    Also Possible #2: Full House or quads with our opponent holding 77, 66, or 44... we could have gotten a little better idea if we had bet the flop, in my opinion.

    Also Possible #3: An off-suit Ace with the 5 of Hearts, but this makes no sense at all after his turn bet, so I would now eliminate the 5 of Hearts from all possible hands he could have.

    Also Possible #4: Rags, and ugly rags too. Although unlikely, we can't really discount this possibility after his bet on the turn.

    My Decision: I raise him from 60 to 200-300 chips here, but I'm already preparing my mind for what I feel comfortable doing if he calls or pushes. This means I have a general idea of what I'll probably do in those events, and will also try to judge his timing (speed of his call or re-raise) to see if I can just get another half-ounce of info from this hand.

    dhubermex
     
    Raise
    Add dhubermex to Rail
  13. I like your flop play, on turn I'd just call , you are most likely still way ahead, if he'd flopped trips/better he'd have bet it on flop, or bigger turn bet. If you reraise on turn, the threat of a big river bet will get him to fold his likely draw. Then hopefully he hits his card on river and will bet and then you can then reraise. Play it caustiously if board pairs or heart comes on river.
    Raise
    Add FriedFish to Rail
  14. *** TURN *** [7h 4h 6h] [7c]

    zoozoopetals: bets 60

    gidders: raises 140 to 200

    zoozoopetals: calls 140
    *** RIVER *** [7h 4h 6h 7c] [Kd]
    zoozoopetals: bets 180
    gidders: ????????
    Thread StarterAdd gidders to Rail
  15. well, as has been pointed out earlier. The 180's are full of complete idiots. So its really difficult to make a sound decision here. The way he played it, makes it look like he's drawing to something. His relatively small bet into you looks very familiar with these players trying to buy their missed draw or flush risking the minimal amount of chips. Tough one gidders. I'd say raise it up.
    Raise
    Add imhooks to Rail
  16. you probably have the best hand, but because of the check on the flop you dont really know enough about his hand to put in much of a raise. Pots pretty good right here, I'd call and see what he has, I dont want to risk raising him here opening myself up to a rereaise/all in. The most likely hands he could have are Ah-7.or Ah-x or a medium pair 10-10 etc with a heart. (6-6, 6-7, 4-4 are possible holdings but because of the flop check you can't be too sure, obv if you raise any of these hands theyre moving you in...which would be bad. Its unlikely a medium pair would call any raise from you on the end he either has nothing, in which case hes not paying you off, or he has a boat, or possibly the flopped bigger flush, and will move u all in if you raise. Call on the river and be happy when you win a nice pot.
    Raise
    Add DexterCain to Rail
  17. Well, looks like we're just gonna call him down here I guess. I suppose there are some hands where we'd get a call from him if we pushed (namely, two-pair, trip 7's, or a lower flush), but I'd just call the 180 chips out of curiosity, if nothing else. I'm confident that there's a decent chance I'm beat here, so it's an easy call down in my case. However, if a player is likewise confident that he has the best hand (and can get a call from the opponent in case of a push), then that's definitely what that player should do. So, running down the probabilities of what I'd consider...

    Most Probable: Full-House or Quads. So this call down is simple. We get to see the answer to all our questions (or get to scratch our heads and ask ourselves more questions)

    Also Possible #1: Two Pair, or Trip Sevens. We could defintely get a call from trip Sevens if we pushed, so this would have to be a judgement call by our hero. Could our opponent possibly showdown A7 here?

    Also Possible #2: Rags, QJ, QT, or JT

    Also Possible #3: Suited Ace of Hearts (in which case we lose the minimum here by simply calling and living to see another hand)

    Not Possible AT ALL: A lower flush. No way in the world would I put him on a lower flush than yours here. That's the only hand that I'd eliminate from all possibilities (watch Gidders post the showdown and I'll betcha a nickel it's a lower flush!)

    * I think the check on the flop hurt us here. We missed a golden opportunity to get more information about our opponent's holding, betting style and attitude sooner, rather than later.

    ** Another thing... at what SPEED did he fire out this last bet of 180 chips from UTG? But even though I'd be tempted to raise him if he "auto-fired" (like within a couple of seconds), I'd still just call here since there's no read at the beginning of tourney (and also because he's even more unlikely to call our raise if he's beat after an "auto-fire" bet, IMO)

    *** If this guy took about 7-10 seconds to bet, then I'd be even more tempted to raise (since this is approx. the amount of time it takes for a donk to go to the Main Lobby and uncheck the "Muck Losing Hand" option so he can show his rags in case you fold, then proceed to hee-haw his ass off). But this small bet is in no way consistent with that type of move, and then of course, even the players in the 180-person SnG's are highly unlikely to call your raise in this position if they're on a pure bluff.

    My Decision: Call and showdown

    dhubermex
     
    Raise
    Add dhubermex to Rail
  18. I A I on the river. the play is so bad in these hed go bust with ak ace hearts to ur river raise
    Add JeniDaMoaner to Rail
  19. is the play bad enough for him to also fold quad sevens to your all in on the river?????
    Add DexterCain to Rail
  20. now if brsavage was playin this hand, i would suspect quads.
    Add imhooks to Rail
  21. no not fold but i have seen quads chked last to act in these
    Add JeniDaMoaner to Rail
  22. I raise to about 400. It is possible you are beat. But in a 180 sng against an unknown, I assume I am good here. It looks more to me like the 180 bet by zoo is an attempt to have a cheap showdown for a decent-sized pot.

    I raise to the maximum I think he will call assuming that he wants a cheap showdown. Raise to about 420.
    Raise
    Add PuertoKid to Rail
  23. I'm interested in seeing how this one turned out at showdown... conclusion me, plz.
     
    Add dhubermex to Rail
  24. I agree...post the outcome so that I can stop checking this thread every couple hours (Yes...I am really bored)

    Also..lol at "FG13: folds (sick read)"
    Add melancholyrb to Rail
  25. *** RIVER *** [7h 4h 6h 7c] [Kd]

    zoozoopetals: bets 180
    gidders: raises 860 to 1040 and is all-in
    zoozoopetals: calls 860

    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    gidders: shows [Qh Kh] (a flush, King high)
    zoozoopetals: shows [Th Kc] (two pair, Kings and Sevens)
    gidders collected 2870 from pot
    Raise
    Thread StarterAdd gidders to Rail
  26. what did i say .
    Add JeniDaMoaner to Rail
  27. nice hand! i would've passed up 860 chips of this hand, so nice going!
     
    Add dhubermex to Rail
  28. When does the next one of these start?
    Add Generaly to Rail
  29. On flop he had a T high flush draw, so that was a monster draw for a $10-$30 SNG palyer. On the river he had two pair he was calling ANYTHING.

    Only problem I have with hand gidders, and this is a slight one, as I play very conservative in the early goings of SNGs, is I probably limp a hand like KQs.
    Raise
    Add alwaysdrowning to Rail
  30. Whenever 180 people register. They are under multitable S&Gs. 180man. 20+2
    Add Niclamus to Rail

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