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Hand from live tournament

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  1. darkknyt darkknyt is offline

    Fenton, MO
    United States

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 9:33am)

    Early on in a $125 buyin event at Harrahs in St Louis. All players start with 5000 chips and blinds are 25/50 in the first round. I am in the small blind. Second time around the table, and I have yet to play a hand. Here is a summary:

    1. Player in middle position raises to 200
    2. Player in the cutoff calls 200.
    3. I complete my small blind to 200 (with 88).
    4. Big Blind comes over the top and raises to 1000.
    5. MP calls 1000.
    6. CO calls 1000.
    7. What do I do?
  2. threebanger threebanger is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 10:09am) in reply to darkknyt

    Well I've played in many tourneys at that Harrah's (we'd probably recognize each other if you play there a lot), only one at that level but several in the 55-80 range, and the regulars who play them play that 125 also. Based on that, and what you described above, the play is generally awful.

    Choices: all-in...you def get looked up by the BB, and once he's in there probably one of the other two. I don't like your 88 in that spot.

    Fold...very reasonable alternative...pray an 8 doesn't flop so you don't have to kick yourself in the nuts...

    Call and set mine...Actually, at this casino, with these players, and knowing I complete the preflop action, this is my choice. If I don't make the set or something like 5-6-7 yeah it cost 1k but we're very alive at 4k, and the implied odds here were absolutely humongous. Flop an 8 and at least one of these doofuses are paying off. Just on knowing the avg personality of these guys if you flop at 8 you are very likely sitting there with over 15k at the end of this hand.

    I haven't been in a couple months but am going in a week or two. Your post just made me look forward to it all the more.
  3. TheMayor TheMayor is offline

    Boston, MA
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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 10:14am) in reply to threebanger

    3.2k in there and you need to call 800 more pre flop...To get the correct implied odds, you only need to get 2.4-3k or so into the pot every time you hit. I think calling and set mining is best here. Folding is too weak for 4:1 pre flop in my opinion, and if you have to check/fold the flop you still have 4k to play with which leaves you plenty of room since its early.
  4. darkknyt darkknyt is offline

    Fenton, MO
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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 10:18am) in reply to threebanger

    Yeah, I play all ranges and I know the play is very bad. I thought about the odds and decided to fold and to save the 1k so early in the tournament. Of course the flop was K86 all spades. The pot was checked down because the BB had AA without a spade and the other two guys both had JJ. A spade came on the turn and the guy with the J of spades took down the pot. After seeing the hand play out, I probably should have called to see the flop and if the 8 does not come I can get away with 4k left to play with. If I had seen the flop with the 8 and 3 spades I would have been moving all in with 4k into a 4k+ pot. They most likely all fold and I double up early. Good to know someone else was thinking the same way I was afterwards. I just wish I had thought the same way during the tourney. I ended up bubbling (got my money back), and I don't think this hand was huge in the whole scheme of things, but it was one that really bothered me at the time. I usually go up there once a week (Wednesday or Thursday), so it would be fun to meet another P5er. PM me the next time you're heading up.
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  5. threebanger threebanger is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 10:39am) in reply to darkknyt

    That board is scary but how does AA not try to take that pot down?

    I'll probably go next Wed. I'll play both the 1 and the 7 pm tourneys and probably play some 3/6 limit or 1/2 nl in between. Which of the cash games do you play up there? I try to stay away from the blackjack tables these days, but if you know basic strategy and want to get drunk and have some fun we can hit one of the $10 ones up too.

    If I do go I'll PM you.
  6. starfish starfish is offline

    Göteborg
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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 10:44am) in reply to darkknyt

    Since you're last to act, I think you can base your decision very much on mathematics, in my opinion. You don't say anything about any players' stacks, but since it's early on I'm going to assume you've all got around 5k.

    The big blind has a big hand, probably AA or KK, possibly AK. The others are nicely playing along, and I wouldn't be surprised to see pocket queens or maybe jacks with the original raiser. I think your implied odds here are staggering. Let's say that if you hit your set, you will be able to extract another 4000 from the pot, either by stacking the BB or getting some bets and calls. Most likely you'll be able to make even more with some sneaky play, since you're in perfect position to checkraise with a few squeezed callers on the flop, but let's say a reasonable and fairly conservative guess is that you'll win 3200 + 4000 = 7200 if you call and hit. You're 8:1 to flop a set, and getting 9:1 implied odds. I'd say the excess pot odds can more than compensate for when you hit but still get beaten.

    So the mathematics say this is a close situation if my assumptions about the implied odds are reasonable, but I actually think they might be slightly low (getting one potsized bet extra in a reraised fourway pot sounds very low.) Anyhow, in that case, call or fold is mainly a matter of your preference and style, as well as your perception of the other players (they certainly don't seem to be very fond of their chips, so maybe you've got a good chance to stack two of them if you hit.)

    I personally lean towards calling here. Hitting and winning would get you a heck of a head start and a stack tostart bossing people with, while not hitting allows you to get awaywithout putting in any more money in the pot (assuming you don't flop astraight draw) which will still leave you with a fairly healthy stackof 4k.

    EDIT: Took me long enough to write this, and apparently you all had the time to more or less complete the thread without me :) Anyway, seems like I wasn't alone in my line of reasoning.
  7. darkknyt darkknyt is offline

    Fenton, MO
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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 10:44am) in reply to threebanger

    I have yet to play the cash games there, I usually go for the tournaments and play craps or video poker to kill the time before the tourney starts. You'll occasionally find me at a blackjack table too, but right now craps is my game. Which cash games are the softest?
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  8. threebanger threebanger is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 10:52am) in reply to darkknyt

    Do you prefer limit or nl? 3/6 limit is old man tight in the morning, but it loosens up in the afternoon and is so crushable at night. 1/2 nl is a mix of regs and casual players, so it's good if you know who to pick on. Really it's what you prefer, I usually go for the limit game there.

    I have never played craps in the casino, just the barracks. I wouldn't mind spending a hundo on it if you want, in between tourneys. Do you plan on playing both in a day or just the evening one?
  9. darkknyt darkknyt is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 11:53am) in reply to threebanger

    I work during the day, so I usually dont get to the casino until about 430 or 5. So I usually sign up for the tournament and then play craps until it starts at 7. I may try 3/6 sometime, but I prefer NL.
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  10. threebanger threebanger is offline

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    Oct 22nd, 2007 (10/22/2007 11:57am) in reply to darkknyt

    Well if I go next Wed (31st) I'll let you know ahead of time and you can find me at a 3/6 table or something. A hour or two of craps before a tourney sounds like a good warmup. I'll PM you a day or two before.
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