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hand from wsop 10k stud championship

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  1. 7CardRyon 7CardRyon is offline

    Portland, OR
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    Jun 3rd, 2009 (6/3/2009 7:18am)

    i limp in early with 345 of hearts, one heart out and one 2 on board. Jeffery Lissandro raises with an ace showing, Tim Phan calls with a 6, i call. i catch the 6 of hearts for open ended strt flush draw. J.L. bets, Phan calls, i raise.
    some people at the table, and Paul Darden said this was bad because i announced my hand and don't have a made hand yet. my contention is that when i raise, i get max value out of the draw, and they are def. both gonna call the bet. Mickey Appleman agreed.
    whatchall think?

    hand result (not that it matters that much): i catch open sixes on fifth. bet, J.L. folds Phan calls (he has some junky rags showin). i brick 6th but bet, he calls. i bet dark on river (which is admittedly bad it seems, but i had also bet dark twice before with trips and a full house which should have counter acted it looking weak), he calls dark, i brick and he wins with one pair of burried 8's.
     
  2. grapsfan grapsfan is offline Head Curmudgeon

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    Jun 3rd, 2009 (6/3/2009 7:24am) in reply to 7CardRyon

    I don't play nearly at this level...but raising 4th sounds completely normal to me. You're a pretty enormous favorite at this point in a 3-way hand - there's no reason not to build the pot.

    Question (since I don't know) - is it possible to bluff Tim Phan on the river in a limit game? If he had rags showing, so it didn't look like there was a draw he was chasing...is there any way he calls on 6th then reconsiders one more bet into a BIGGER pot?
  3. Crazyhorse76 Crazyhorse76 is offline

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    Jun 3rd, 2009 (6/3/2009 8:10am) in reply to grapsfan

    I play it the exact same way, you got more money in the pot as a huge fave. Also, who cares if your hand is face up? If you catch good on 5th, you lose any opportunity to get more money in the pot. Lots of people wait til 5th to raise because the bet doubles. I don't like that idea, though i do it sometimes when I'm rolled up. I get the idea, but a lot of people will check to you on 5th for that very same reason. It could also look like you're weak, and trying to get the pot heads-up, which is definitely not the goal with your hand. You need to mix things up obv, but you're not gonna be able to trick too many people in that field obv.You lost the pot, but got more in there when you should've. As far as the dark river bet, you know he ain't folding, just sucks to brick off like that.
     2
  4. Dwain Phoenix Dwain Phoenix is offline

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    Jun 3rd, 2009 (6/3/2009 12:09pm) in reply to 7CardRyon

    I would have played it the same except one thought...

    On 6th I'd check looking for a free card, and if Phan bets I check-raise.

    I think that play opens up alot more options on the river as well and would give your dark bet a better shot.
  5. andersmeli andersmeli is offline

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    Jun 3rd, 2009 (6/3/2009 12:20pm) in reply to 7CardRyon

    I doubt you will get expert advice on here, and you are prob one of the best stud-players on here. I generally dont like raising 4th with flush draws as it turns your hand kinda face up. If you make your flush it kinda freezes the action and if you brick you will probably face a raise on 6th as underdog. You still have 6 semi-hidden outs tho so im kinda torn between calling and raising. I think I just call.
     
  6. Camz Camz is offline

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    Jun 3rd, 2009 (6/3/2009 12:23pm) in reply to 7CardRyon

    Why don't you post this hand here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/20/stud/
  7. that_pope that_pope is offline la la la...I'm so sexy

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    Jun 3rd, 2009 (6/3/2009 1:01pm) in reply to Camz

    I agree with everyone saying you aren't likely to get much good advice on here, and you probably know that, so this is only a brag on your part. Getting limit hold'em advice on here is beyond difficult, I can't imagine getting 7 Card Stud advice at a world class level is even worth the time to post.
  8. SluggerWV SluggerWV is offline A picture is worth a thousand words.

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    Jun 3rd, 2009 (6/3/2009 1:13pm) in reply to Dwain Phoenix

     
    Originally Posted by Dwain Phoenix View Post


    I would have played it the same except one thought...

    On 6th I'd check looking for a free card, and if Phan bets I check-raise.

    I think that play opens up alot more options on the river as well and would give your dark bet a better shot.

    I like this route
  9. pokerfan X pokerfan X is offline

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    Jun 3rd, 2009 (6/3/2009 1:26pm) in reply to 7CardRyon

    Looks fine to me as long as the raise on 4th is also consistent with the line you'd take with rolled 5s or a hidden over pair. Dark bet on 7th sacrifices a smidge of fold equity though. I think if you look then bet there's a nonzero chance he folds mid pair that missed 2 pair by river.
  10. MattyDaCobra MattyDaCobra is offline

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    Jun 3rd, 2009 (6/3/2009 1:33pm) in reply to 7CardRyon

    I think you played it okay. Knowing that Phan is calling down with one (or maybe he has two already) pair then the check-raise on 6th street is a sneaky idea, except I don't think he bets into your big draw and open pair so I doubt it would work.

    Also, I like to raise 3-card straight flushes on 3rd street. Limping gives your hand away a little too often, and raising and then pairing your door card probably would've allowed you to win it on 5th street.
     
  11. paidchex paidchex is offline

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    Jun 3rd, 2009 (6/3/2009 1:36pm) in reply to 7CardRyon

    I would raise fourth as well. Its unfortunate that you caught running 6s and had to take the lead. In this field I would assume the table to put you on a near nut flush draw minimum and depending on your door card, which makes a little difference, maybe even the straight draw. Since its now HU in this case, I would go for the check raise on the turn or take the free card and sell the river bet by looking at my card and betting no matter what.
    Basically Tim Phan, my man, put you on a flush draw with the 6s, no credit for trips cause he had a 6, and went for the ride with 8s.

    No problems with how you played it but it does become obvious what you have to the table, so betting dark encourages people to gamble with you.
  12. 7CardRyon 7CardRyon is offline

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    Jun 3rd, 2009 (6/3/2009 2:23pm) in reply to grapsfan

     
    Originally Posted by grapsfan View Post

    I don't play nearly at this level...but raising 4th sounds completely normal to me. You're a pretty enormous favorite at this point in a 3-way hand - there's no reason not to build the pot.

    Question (since I don't know) - is it possible to bluff Tim Phan on the river in a limit game? If he had rags showing, so it didn't look like there was a draw he was chasing...is there any way he calls on 6th then reconsiders one more bet into a BIGGER pot?

    well ya, you are prob. right. the dark bet is my mistake in the hand. the fourth street action is more the dilema for discussion imo. but like i said before, in previous pots i had bet dark with big hands on 6th. but i guess he didn't care bout that.
     
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  13. 7CardRyon 7CardRyon is offline

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    Jun 3rd, 2009 (6/3/2009 2:29pm) in reply to Dwain Phoenix

     
    Originally Posted by Dwain Phoenix View Post


    I would have played it the same except one thought...

    On 6th I'd check looking for a free card, and if Phan bets I check-raise.

    I think that play opens up alot more options on the river as well and would give your dark bet a better shot.

    he's never betting 6th for me there. but i like your idea and creativity.
     
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  14. 7CardRyon 7CardRyon is offline

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    Jun 3rd, 2009 (6/3/2009 2:36pm) in reply to that_pope

     
    Originally Posted by that_pope View Post

    I agree with everyone saying you aren't likely to get much good advice on here, and you probably know that, so this is only a brag on your part. Getting limit hold'em advice on here is beyond difficult, I can't imagine getting 7 Card Stud advice at a world class level is even worth the time to post.

    just trying to get ideas. stud, like holdem is a poker game. therefore, any thoughts are welcome and open for interpretation. the hand is interesting and worth discussion.
    seems i can't post anything on here without getting some sort of hate. that kinda defeats the purpose of this place. why don't you haters try to devote your negative energy to something useful.
    any hating comments from now on are not getting responded to. you guys aren't worth the effort. so just don't bother anymore k.
     
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  15. that_pope that_pope is offline la la la...I'm so sexy

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    Jun 3rd, 2009 (6/3/2009 7:04pm) in reply to 7CardRyon

    How the hell am I hating? We are giving you advice that 2+2 might be a better place to get expert level thoughts on the hand.

    And you sure as hell didn't give enough detail to make a good analysis anyways. You didn't state if anyone was shortish on chips (which rarely happens in cash games), you didn't state how people had been playing, what time of hands they are opening w/, etc. These are needed to make the decision as well, so maybe it is better you didn't post on 2+2, because you are playing your hand, and your hand only, and that is first level play.
  16. MattyDaCobra MattyDaCobra is offline

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    Jun 3rd, 2009 (6/3/2009 7:22pm) in reply to 7CardRyon

    7CR, why didn't you play 3rd stronger, as I suggested above? Limping with strong drawing hands defines them too much, whereas raising puts the question in your opponents' heads as to whether or not you have a big PP. This accomplishes two things: 1.) it allows you to sometimes win when you pair your door card but strike out on your draw (opponent puts you on a set or in this case, with a low door card, two pair), and 2.) It increases your chances of being paid off by two pair or one big pair if you do get there with your draw, as the opponent reasons you had a big PP often enough to warrant the pay-off.
     
  17. Wein Wein is offline Sunday Millionaire

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    Jun 3rd, 2009 (6/3/2009 7:24pm) in reply to 7CardRyon

    I might limp/raise here before 4th to "tip my hand" as having aces and being able to bet the turn and then get a free fifth card. Your board will either look weak and they won't put you on 34 under even though you're drawing real nice or your board might get folds from better hands if you haven't improved.

    Just a thought/one way to play this.
     
  18. Dwain Phoenix Dwain Phoenix is offline

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    Jun 3rd, 2009 (6/3/2009 11:23pm) in reply to 7CardRyon

     
    Originally Posted by 7CardRyon View Post

     
    Originally Posted by Dwain Phoenix View Post


    I would have played it the same except one thought...

    On 6th I'd check looking for a free card, and if Phan bets I check-raise.

    I think that play opens up alot more options on the river as well and would give your dark bet a better shot.

    he's never betting 6th for me there. but i like your idea and creativity.

    That's what I was sayin taking a free card here is probably the best play, and the check is dangerous because of the possibility of the check-raise as a plan B ya know?
  19. ImaLucSac ImaLucSac is offline

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    Jun 4th, 2009 (6/4/2009 4:49am) in reply to 7CardRyon

    I think that by raising on 4th like you did you both reveal your hand and take away very much possibility of bluff. You maybe have a very unlikely hidden 66 bust most of the time your hand now becomes faceup and they can safely play around you. I kind of like waiting until 5th to raise to see if you get a better raising position to possibly iso and get the pot heads up with the increased raise size. Plus the 5th raise may make your hand look stronger as thats a typical "slowplay" line. With phan having raggy cards showing a bet on 7th with no pair is basically lighting flame to money also as he isnt ever folding.
    67 1
  20. gguk2008 gguk2008 is offline

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    Jun 4th, 2009 (6/4/2009 6:04am) in reply to ImaLucSac

    I'm liking the raise with the 3-straight-flush, for the reasons mentioned previously.
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