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Hate getting 3-bet? Limp.

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  1. Mindthis Mindthis is offline

    Ottawa
    Canada

    Posts: 133
    Joined: Feb 09

    Sep 19th, 2010 (9/19/2010 4:53pm)

    It is my hope that the next step in the evolution of poker will be a return to small pots preflop. Raising, getting 3-bet and then calling the 3-bet dramatically increases the variance in the game. When that situation happens in mid-tournament, it isn't rare that by the time you see the flop, the amount in the pot is already 20-30% of what's in your stack, or even more sometimes. I just find this pretty f***ing ridiculous and annoying (even when I am the one 3-betting). You basically have to decide if you're gonna bluff at it for all (or almost all) your chips, or wait for another hand, after having invested quite a bit in the pot.

    Could we see a return to profitable limping? It would have the same effect. Limp, knowing you're getting raised, and then call the damn raise. And in the case when you would have 4-bet the 3-bet, you can limp-raise. In both cases the pot stays smaller. Meaning that ultimately you can try those plays more often.

    Makes sense?
     
  2. wackyJaxon wackyJaxon is offline Admin X

    Vilnius
    Lithuania

    Posts: 12,260
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    Sep 19th, 2010 (9/19/2010 4:55pm) in reply to Mindthis

    Play limit (or even pot limit) games..
      1 
  3. RUBINH RUBINH is offline

    Manhattan, NY
    United States

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    Sep 19th, 2010 (9/19/2010 4:58pm) in reply to Mindthis

     
    Originally Posted by Mindthis View Post

    Makes sense?

    nope
  4. Ahurazor Ahurazor is offline

    Bathurst
    Australia

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    Joined: Jan 08

    Sep 19th, 2010 (9/19/2010 5:02pm) in reply to RUBINH

    :-|
    279 2
  5. ApesAreFun ApesAreFun is offline Moderator/Euro Donk

    Norway

    Posts: 6,246
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    Sep 19th, 2010 (9/19/2010 5:05pm) in reply to Ahurazor

    You're talking about a weak-tight game. Go ahead, play it all day ;)
     906 
  6. Ozzie Ozzie is offline

    Joliet, IL
    United States

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    Sep 19th, 2010 (9/19/2010 5:24pm) in reply to ApesAreFun

    sounds inexploitable
  7. Counting Bodies Counting Bodies is offline

    Posts: 2,851
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    Sep 19th, 2010 (9/19/2010 5:26pm) in reply to Ozzie

    I actually like mixing in a few open limps here and there quite a bit. Especially if you've been open raising alot of pots, seems like a good way to keep your opponents guessing. Alot of times you can take the pot down post flop with a small bet. Also something good to mix in if youve been getting reshipped on alot or if there are good reship stacks behind. Just something to have in the arsenal, do i think its gonna be the next evolution of poker? ha no.
    Edited By: Counting Bodies Sep 19th, 2010 at 05:41 PM
     
  8. Mindthis Mindthis is offline

    Ottawa
    Canada

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    Sep 19th, 2010 (9/19/2010 5:37pm) in reply to Counting Bodies

    Oh the levels...
     
    Thread Starter
  9. chron6866 chron6866 is offline

    Toronto
    Canada

    Posts: 479
    Joined: Sep 08

    Sep 19th, 2010 (9/19/2010 5:38pm) in reply to Mindthis

     
    Originally Posted by Mindthis View Post

    It is my hope that the next step in the evolution of poker will be a return to small pots preflop. Raising, getting 3-bet and then calling the 3-bet dramatically increases the variance in the game. When that situation happens in mid-tournament, it isn't rare that by the time you see the flop, the amount in the pot is already 20-30% of what's in your stack, or even more sometimes. I just find this pretty f***ing ridiculous and annoying (even when I am the one 3-betting). You basically have to decide if you're gonna bluff at it for all (or almost all) your chips, or wait for another hand, after having invested quite a bit in the pot.

    Could we see a return to profitable limping? It would have the same effect. Limp, knowing you're getting raised, and then call the damn raise. And in the case when you would have 4-bet the 3-bet, you can limp-raise. In both cases the pot stays smaller. Meaning that ultimately you can try those plays more often.

    Makes sense?


    By limp calling you are seeing tons of flops oop and your also giving someone else the opportunity to take the lead preflop and bet you out on the flop at a high % i would think

    I don't like it personally....
    Edited By: chron6866 Sep 19th, 2010 at 05:39 PM
     
  10. leftygrove leftygrove is offline

    Storrs Mansfield, CT
    United States

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    Sep 19th, 2010 (9/19/2010 5:39pm) in reply to chron6866

    i think it's more optimal to raise preflop usually. there is at least top player (david benefield) that limps HU and pulls it off very well though.

    i don't mind games being higher variance in NL. higher variance --> more fish thinking they are good --> more profit
  11. bef99hwk bef99hwk is offline

    Manhattan, KS
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    Sep 19th, 2010 (9/19/2010 5:40pm) in reply to leftygrove

    If you can play postflop OOP, then yeah go ahead and do it. Can 95% of mtt regs play profitably postflop (obviously I'm in this 95%)? No, which is why we have 80th bets all in pre.

    EDIT: And I don't think lower stakes players get 3b often enough to where limping is really necessary. They only 3b good hands, and you can just fold and wait for another hand...not that exploitable. And against good regs, just 4b shove with appropriate stacks and suck out.
    Edited By: bef99hwk Sep 19th, 2010 at 05:41 PM
  12. EyeKnows EyeKnows is offline

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    Sep 19th, 2010 (9/19/2010 5:41pm) in reply to bef99hwk

    try it for 6 months and get back to us w the results please, this might make you famous.
  13. pjformella pjformella is offline

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    Sep 19th, 2010 (9/19/2010 5:42pm) in reply to leftygrove

     
    Originally Posted by leftygrove View Post

    i don't mind games being higher variance in NL. higher variance --> more fish thinking they are good --> more profit

    i feel like this is so true. we talk about how a lot of good players underestimate variance, but i feel like there are just as many bad ones overestimating it. they play like shit day in and day out, thinking that it's just the bad side of variance.
     
  14. bef99hwk bef99hwk is offline

    Manhattan, KS
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    Sep 19th, 2010 (9/19/2010 5:45pm) in reply to pjformella

     
    Originally Posted by pjformella View Post

    i feel like this is so true. we talk about how a lot of good players underestimate variance, but i feel like there are just as many bad ones overestimating it. they play like shit day in and day out, thinking that it's just the bad side of variance.

    Yeap I used that excuse for about 6 months...now I just think I suck :-/
  15. metadonk metadonk is offline

    Mount Pearl
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    Sep 19th, 2010 (9/19/2010 5:47pm) in reply to bef99hwk

    this is pretty laughable, theres a reason the preflop aggression is so amped up now as opposed to say 2 years ago, thats because overall it leads to a much more +ev outcome overtime and better results, the truth of the matter is that there just aren't as many fish that are just going to spew/spaz off their stacks postflop to you anymore, and there are a lot more people that are going to put you in difficult spots postflop continuously, you can feel pretty sure that if limping and "trying" to play small pot poker was a very profitable approach to today's mtt scene you would see it a lot more than you do, what you see instead is the guy 4 bet jamming T9 suited.
    Personally i really got back into mtt poker this year and the difference between now and even 6 months ago is that in i will say 70-80% of mid stakes mtt's even once you get deep theres just not many easy spots to " steal the blinds" you look at a lot of poker literature that people wrote in the last 4-5 years and continuously you will see ppl talking about stealing the blinds and whatnot when they get big/antes kick in, nowadays to steal the blinds it just might cost you all your stack rjamming a middle position open, thats just the way it is
     
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