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How bad is this? Is this bad?

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  1. mcg22 mcg22 is offline

    Toronto
    Canada

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    Apr 30th, 2007 (4/30/2007 9:15pm)

    This hand took place 20 min into a $26 MTT. Early in a sng I would have folded this on the turn, despite the odds, to preserve my stack, but I've heard people say all the time that you have to take the odds when you are getting them in MTTs. I was hoping to hit and triple up here, does this make sense or is it just wrong to call off all your chips so early on a draw? Obv if Allin528 hadn't called on the flop I would have folded right then...

    Full Tilt Poker Game #2323788650: $19,000 Guarantee (17132276), Table 107 - 20/40 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:21:06 ET - 2007/04/30
    Seat 1: JLO63 (1,310)
    Seat 2: Irish4Leaf (2,020)
    Seat 3: BRBbbq (1,355)
    Seat 4: Allin528 (2,270)
    Seat 5: Mr Mack Bust (1,270)
    Seat 6: RiccoS (2,190)
    Seat 7: RushingTilt (1,540)
    Seat 8: MCG22 (1,690)
    Seat 9: CrucialHandz (1,155)
    Allin528 posts the small blind of 20
    Mr Mack Bust posts the big blind of 40
    The button is in seat #3
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to MCG22 [Jd Kd]
    RiccoS folds
    RushingTilt folds
    MCG22 calls 40
    CrucialHandz folds
    JLO63 calls 40
    Irish4Leaf calls 40
    BRBbbq folds
    Allin528 calls 20
    Mr Mack Bust checks
    *** FLOP *** [Ad 6d Kc]
    Allin528 checks
    Mr Mack Bust checks
    MCG22 bets 120
    JLO63 raises to 560
    Irish4Leaf folds
    Allin528 calls 560
    Mr Mack Bust folds
    MCG22 calls 440
    *** TURN *** [Ad 6d Kc] [3c]
    Allin528 checks
    MCG22 checks
    JLO63 bets 710, and is all in
    Allin528 calls 710
    MCG22 has 15 seconds left to act
    MCG22 calls 710
    *** RIVER *** [Ad 6d Kc 3c] [Jc]
    Allin528 checks
    MCG22 checks
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    JLO63 shows [6h Ah] (two pair, Aces and Sixes)
    Allin528 mucks
    MCG22 mucks
    JLO63 wins the pot (4,010) with two pair, Aces and Sixes
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 4,010 | Rake 0
    Board: [Ad 6d Kc 3c Jc]
    Seat 1: JLO63 showed [6h Ah] and won (4,010) with two pair, Aces and Sixes
    Seat 2: Irish4Leaf folded on the Flop
    Seat 3: BRBbbq (button) didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 4: Allin528 (small blind) mucked [As 8d] - a pair of Aces
    Seat 5: Mr Mack Bust (big blind) folded on the Flop
    Seat 6: RiccoS didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 7: RushingTilt didn't bet (folded)
    Seat 8: MCG22 mucked [Jd Kd] - two pair, Kings and Jacks
    Seat 9: CrucialHandz didn't bet (folded)
  2. Sokpuppet7 Sokpuppet7 is offline

    Fort Worth, TX
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    Apr 30th, 2007 (4/30/2007 9:19pm) in reply to mcg22

    Im shoving in the spot that you smooth called after the flop...
  3. fivermsg fivermsg is offline

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    Apr 30th, 2007 (4/30/2007 9:21pm) in reply to Sokpuppet7

    you were losing chips anyway but you had a monster flop and should have got it all in there
  4. Schlik20 Schlik20 is offline

    Madison, WI
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    Apr 30th, 2007 (4/30/2007 9:25pm) in reply to fivermsg

    that early i shove flop..
  5. seanb seanb is offline

    Odessa, FL
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    Apr 30th, 2007 (4/30/2007 9:33pm) in reply to mcg22

    Agreed, with that many outs I would shove it and hope for a double/triple. But I also have a -47% roi on OPR, so what do I know. :p
  6. 1eyed_Ace 1eyed_Ace is offline

    Langley
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    Apr 30th, 2007 (4/30/2007 9:40pm) in reply to Schlik20

    notice how the above three comments didnt help or woulda helped change any outcome?
    next stick to your gut (it was right)

    sidenote if you play big stack or bust theory then its auto shove
  7. Sokpuppet7 Sokpuppet7 is offline

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    Apr 30th, 2007 (4/30/2007 9:42pm) in reply to 1eyed_Ace

    OMFG so results-oriented its sick... Im sorry, but dont listen to what 1eyed said...

    EDIT: Sorry if i came off as a jerk, im just very very very adament about my position here, lol
  8. Faaantastic Faaantastic is offline

    Highland, NY
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    Apr 30th, 2007 (4/30/2007 9:50pm) in reply to Sokpuppet7

    ^^^ sok is wise

    2nd pair, nut flush draw, how do u NOT shove this flop, especially with that action??
    Also, it very well could be a 3-way allin, so with the money in the pot and your odds of hitting, it is such an unbelievably +ev play

    shoooooooovvvvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
  9. 1eyed_Ace 1eyed_Ace is offline

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    Apr 30th, 2007 (4/30/2007 10:02pm) in reply to mcg22

    Um i guess some dont read the whole thread

    FTR

    read the guys question, understand what hes asking(the sitngo part)

    i personally auto shove that flop too
    he didnt AS so now what
  10. Sokpuppet7 Sokpuppet7 is offline

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    Apr 30th, 2007 (4/30/2007 10:10pm) in reply to 1eyed_Ace

    Umm, i'd rather not auto-shove... the way he played it had everyone ending up committing themselves, and thats exactly what i want with this hand
  11. 1eyed_Ace 1eyed_Ace is offline

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    Apr 30th, 2007 (4/30/2007 11:01pm) in reply to Sokpuppet7

    soooo you want want everyone committed to this hand that you are still bluffing at?

    you cant beleive your king is good
  12. Sokpuppet7 Sokpuppet7 is offline

    Fort Worth, TX
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    Apr 30th, 2007 (4/30/2007 11:02pm) in reply to 1eyed_Ace

    bluffing?! run the odds and compare the pot odds... You are in no way bluffing. You have monster odds and a monster draw...
  13. fivermsg fivermsg is offline

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    Apr 30th, 2007 (4/30/2007 11:06pm) in reply to 1eyed_Ace

    ooops i posted the wrong stats i guess im the guy who needs to pay attention
  14. 1eyed_Ace 1eyed_Ace is offline

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    Apr 30th, 2007 (4/30/2007 11:07pm) in reply to Sokpuppet7

    i agree with everything your saying except why the turn?
    if someone only had an ace on the flop they could now have 2pair (in this case villian already had it) but now you have less chance of them folding
    dont ignore the guys read either
  15. 1eyed_Ace 1eyed_Ace is offline

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    Apr 30th, 2007 (4/30/2007 11:16pm) in reply to fivermsg

    ^this makes no sense

    i would push that flop, not smooth call and make a move on the turn.

    Edit: BTW sok can i have 20 cents?
  16. fivermsg fivermsg is offline

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    Apr 30th, 2007 (4/30/2007 11:19pm) in reply to 1eyed_Ace

    yeah thats what i was saying ...the odds i posted were wrong but give the action the only hand the has him beat there is 66 or a6 ...i mean the guy certainly is not representing a set here so that means that in order for him to even be behing in the hand he has to put the man on ace six which would be pretty hard to do...either way he has odds to call/push being a 60/40 dog ...of course push is the answer
  17. mcg22 mcg22 is offline

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    May 1st, 2007 (5/1/2007 9:43am) in reply to fivermsg

    Thanks for all the replies guys... The concencus seems to be to push on the flop. Does anyone else have any other comments/suggestions?
    Thread Starter
  18. ScorpianJim ScorpianJim is offline

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    May 1st, 2007 (5/1/2007 11:24am) in reply to mcg22

    First of all no I would not say this is bad so much. There are different ways people play this, but most as you can see would reshove all in on the flop. Here is what I see: Everyone just flat called preflop so you can't really put anyone on a huge hand say trip aces or kings or often not AK after the flop action, so it could be a worse flush draw or two pair (maybe 66.) So as I see it your outs are a K, a diamond and maybe a J if they are raising with a decent A not 2 pair. But another reason for the push on the flop is that they could fold and it is a pretty decent pot already. However I think you could make a case for folding here or am I just wrong. Basically what kind of hand can you put JLO on, at least 2 pair? he is raising enough to idealy rid of the flush draw, so I think he is fairly strong here at least 2 pair, also odds wise I do not see him folding his hand ever. Looking at how much you have in the flop a whole 40 chips. if you put him on A6o and assuming the other guy folds your odds are: 40% to win the hand, if you put him on a set then it's 30%. Best case he has a bad ace and calls and then you are favourite 51-49 but I think thats unlikely. There just seem no point in defending the chips you have in the pot, and no point getting your money in behind. But then you've got to gamble I guess, I would just feel a lot more confident getting this money in on a K high flop say with the same action.

    Scorp
  19. MattyDaCobra MattyDaCobra is offline

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    May 1st, 2007 (5/1/2007 11:36am) in reply to Faaantastic

    Yeah, more aggression on the flop, obviously, though you'd've been in there with the A6o anyway. What you needed to do was raise preflop to get out hands like A6 and A8, or just not play KJ there to begin with (though I like opening with it more than folding).
     
  20. MonkeyCowboy MonkeyCowboy is offline

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    May 1st, 2007 (5/1/2007 3:46pm) in reply to mcg22

    I am I doing the math correct here?

    9 outs for the flush + 2 kings = 11 outs 31/11 = 2.81

    200 + 120 + 560 + 560 = 1440/440 = 3.27

    Call on flop is correct

    4.64 on the turn

    Call on turn correct?
  21. seanb seanb is offline

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    May 1st, 2007 (5/1/2007 3:49pm) in reply to MonkeyCowboy

    Plus jacks, 3 more outs
  22. ashleigh009 ashleigh009 is offline

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    May 1st, 2007 (5/1/2007 5:32pm) in reply to seanb

    the hand was not played badly, i would prefer to shove the flop myself, but after you missed that, calling the turn is fine
  23. MonkeyCowboy MonkeyCowboy is offline

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    May 1st, 2007 (5/1/2007 8:11pm) in reply to seanb

    I left the Jacks out. I asume I have to beat Aces.
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