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How do I play this river? Advice needed!

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  1. LVpokerdealer LVpokerdealer is offline

    Las Vegas, NV
    United States

    Posts: 12,100
    Joined: Apr 06

    Mar 24th, 2011 (3/24/2011 6:58pm)

    I am just a low limit player, and always find these spots tricky, I never know what to do...appreciate any advice on how I played the hand to the river, and what to do on the river advice is needed.

    *********** # 4 **************
    pokerstars Game #59704998952: Tournament #376218949, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (200/400) - 2011/03/24 2:31:55 ET
    Table '376218949 2' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
    Seat 1: SFkeelhauled (18182 in chips)
    Seat 2: zolla25 (13045 in chips)
    Seat 3: Darri (14038 in chips)
    Seat 4: Justin58 (21980 in chips)
    Seat 5: Miss Bones7 (5959 in chips)
    Seat 6: BLockVan (9989 in chips)
    Seat 7: kreisin (11680 in chips)
    Seat 8: vrodrguez1 (10631 in chips)
    Seat 9: jacklinw (13996 in chips)
    SFkeelhauled: posts the ante 50
    zolla25: posts the ante 50
    Darri: posts the ante 50
    Justin58: posts the ante 50
    Miss Bones7: posts the ante 50
    BLockVan: posts the ante 50
    kreisin: posts the ante 50
    vrodrguez1: posts the ante 50
    jacklinw: posts the ante 50
    vrodrguez1: posts small blind 200
    jacklinw: posts big blind 400
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to SFkeelhauled [Jc Jd]
    SFkeelhauled: raises 532 to 932
    zolla25: calls 932
    Darri: folds
    Justin58: folds
    Miss Bones7: folds
    BLockVan: folds
    kreisin: folds
    vrodrguez1: folds
    jacklinw: folds
    *** FLOP *** [Jh 6s 7s]
    SFkeelhauled: bets 1200
    zolla25: calls 1200
    *** TURN *** [Jh 6s 7s] [3c]
    SFkeelhauled: bets 3099
    zolla25: calls 3099
    *** RIVER *** [Jh 6s 7s 3c] [Qs]
    SFkeelhauled:??
  2. Jason2890 Jason2890 is offline plays plo for overlays

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    Mar 24th, 2011 (3/24/2011 7:05pm) in reply to LVpokerdealer

    I probably check to see what he does. Without any reads, it seems most likely that he was chasing a flush draw. If he bets small enough on the river, I probably call. If he pushes, I probably fold, but it's really player dependent.

    Bet/fold might actually be a better line on the river. I'm not sure though, as I usually struggle in these spots as well. I'd like to hear what other people say about it.
  3. Stringer Hell Stringer Hell is offline

    Madison, WI
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    Mar 24th, 2011 (3/24/2011 7:13pm) in reply to Jason2890

    check/call any size bet?
  4. JerrysWorld JerrysWorld is offline

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    Mar 24th, 2011 (3/24/2011 7:17pm) in reply to Stringer Hell

    I am also interested what the common answer is. I would usually continue my bet and fold to a shove, but other times I check and wait to see what the villain does.
  5. s1nnr s1nnr is offline will stab you

    Philadelphia, PA
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    Mar 24th, 2011 (3/24/2011 7:22pm) in reply to Jason2890

     
    Originally Posted by Jason2890 View Post

    I probably check to see what he does. Without any reads, it seems most likely that he was chasing a flush draw. If he bets small enough on the river, I probably call. If he pushes, I probably fold, but it's really player dependent.

    Bet/fold might actually be a better line on the river. I'm not sure though, as I usually struggle in these spots as well. I'd like to hear what other people say about it.

    Bet/ fold seems terrible with the stack size... Villain will have a pot size stack left on the river... Tough spot for sure... Bet/call or put em all in is an option, or c/f if you honestly put him on a fd...
  6. kelmann333 kelmann333 is offline

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    Mar 24th, 2011 (3/24/2011 7:28pm) in reply to s1nnr

    Value bet river, which will be about half of villian's stack. I'm not too worried about a flush. Checking looks, and is weak; so villian will recognize that and shove.
  7. rivverkiller rivverkiller is offline

    White Rock
    Canada

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    Mar 24th, 2011 (3/24/2011 7:29pm) in reply to kelmann333

    always shoving here....lot's of worse hands that pay you off and stack:pot ratio is perfect for it. Just unlucky if he actually had a flush draw.
     
  8. Getumboy Getumboy is offline

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    Mar 24th, 2011 (3/24/2011 7:32pm) in reply to s1nnr

    Pretty positive that check/call is the best option here. By betting a reasonable amount you are allowing him to fold a lot of hands that you beat and allowing him to get all the chips in if he has the flush. By checking, he may bet a worse hand and also hands that he decides to turn into a bluff. If he does have the flush most likely he will put a value bet in there which you can afford to look up, I don't think he shoves a better hand than yours in this spot.

    edit: damn, I just noticed I was using your stack as the effective, with less than 8k behind on the river effective I think I like rivverkiller's line better, my b yo!
    Edited By: Getumboy Mar 24th, 2011 at 07:36 PM
    Reason: not very good at the reading thing
  9. tyson219 tyson219 is offline Moderator

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    Mar 24th, 2011 (3/24/2011 7:52pm) in reply to thedylan

    Given stack sizes, bet/fold is terrible. I prefer check/call slightly over shoving.

    With a check/call, I think villain is shoving most hands he's calling with and bluffing sometimes, so I think you'll get more in the long run with a check/call.
    Edited By: tyson219 Mar 24th, 2011 at 07:53 PM
     969 
  10. Burying_Luck Burying_Luck is offline

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    Mar 24th, 2011 (3/24/2011 10:04pm) in reply to rivverkiller

     
    Originally Posted by rivverkiller View Post

    always shoving here....lot's of worse hands that pay you off and stack:pot ratio is perfect for it. Just unlucky if he actually had a flush draw.

    What do you expect him to be calling with?

    This spot definitely sucks because it's unlikely he has Jx because we can account for three of them. He may have a 88-TT if he's shown to be passive pre. Again, depending on what you've seen him do prior to this hand A6 or A7 is possible I suppose. FD seems possible, but I would expect him to raise flop or turn if this was the case (passive bad? what have you seen?). I think I would c/c here. I don't see us losing too much value in checking, but could be obv be way off.
  11. dgillis dgillis is offline Moderator

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    Mar 26th, 2011 (3/26/2011 1:28am) in reply to Burying_Luck

    I cant attest to this being the absolute best play but I'm check calling here, if he hit the flush he's coming over top of your river bet, if he flatted incorrectly with a small pp there are now likely two scare cards and a flush that will force him out, if he hit an underset he's betting the river, if he flatted AQ/Aj then he may semi bluff the flush on the river, dont see any better options personally

    ***edit***
    fyi the reason I'm not betting here is a concept that I cannot for the life of me remember the name of, its when your oop but the opponents stack size virtually guarantees a shove if you check, so really you have position. I thought it was like implied position or something but I can't find it now to save my life. I'll keep looking...
    Edited By: dgillis Mar 26th, 2011 at 01:54 AM
     
  12. tom44411 tom44411 is offline

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    Mar 26th, 2011 (3/26/2011 7:14pm) in reply to dgillis

    if opp is type of player to call 2 streets with just a fd then c/f considering hes prob not betting like 88 which is what i think he has btw. id bet river cause unless ppl have like a fd and something else to go with it ppl dont really tend to chase down fds unless its the nuts. obv some ppl are stations and dont care but he has about 8k left and id bet like 3500 and get paid by 99 88
    Edited By: tom44411 Mar 26th, 2011 at 07:14 PM
     
  13. lordxixor101 lordxixor101 is offline

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    Mar 26th, 2011 (3/26/2011 7:25pm) in reply to tom44411

    I like the check/call as well. No point betting, flush is going to push, and worse hands will fold. But, check, and you can get some bad hands to bluff this river, and a flush is less likely to push. Not sure you can bet/fold here. Any kind of jack (AJ/KJ) can play this way at this level, so can 1010, and even hands like 22.

    Only bad thing is, really bad players at this level will have a low flush and push all in here, where they really can't get paid except by what you have. But, think your stuck calling
  14. dtools22 dtools22 is offline

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    Mar 26th, 2011 (3/26/2011 8:15pm) in reply to lordxixor101

    OK I'll stick my neck out on this one.

    Everyone who's check/calling here, what exactly are you expecting? Are you thinking the villain is going to suddenly lead with two pair here? Also what two pair hand can he really have since he flats UTG+1 preflop? Check/calling in this spot allows our villain to play his entire range profitably here. We have no reason to think he's capable of bluffing given his passive line, all the hands we beat are likely to check behind, so the only thing he bets out with here is a flush.

    Also I'm not really worried about the third spade. Similarly to my two pair argument what FD does he have here? Flatting in EP like this could mean suited broad way cards but there aren't that many to be worried about, AKs, ATs, KTs, and I think KTs and ATs are likely out (though I'm open to rethinking that).

    EDIT: Add AJs, KJs, and JTs to the mix as well

    The villain's likely range here to me is 66+, AKs. I don't see how he has a J in this spot, and there just aren't that many FDs to be worried about. This line to me looks like he's playing pot control or letting you lead into his set. I'm bet/calling this, gg if he has a flush or rivered QQ on you.
    Edited By: dtools22 Mar 26th, 2011 at 08:19 PM
  15. gar2garvin gar2garvin is offline

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    Mar 26th, 2011 (3/26/2011 10:15pm) in reply to dtools22

    Only flush draw i can see villain having is AJss. Maybe KJ and TJ but dont really see villain flatting those pre, unless there is some read of him flatting wide in EP. I also think AJss puts in a raise here somewhere but maybe not. Think check calling river is pretty awful bc i really doubt villain is ever bluffing the river. Its obvious he has some sort of hand(either mid pp, FD or lower set) bc he called flop and turn and really dont think ppl at this level are capable of turning a hand like 88-TT(which is what he has here a lot) into a bluff. So if you're gonna c/c the river you might as well shove and get weaker hands to call.
     
  16. Puggy82 Puggy82 is offline

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    Mar 27th, 2011 (3/27/2011 2:44am) in reply to gar2garvin

    Check/calling this river would be dreadful without any read he can turn his hand into a bluff.

    He either has a made hand prior to the river or a flush - so he always has showdown value so isn't going to bluff and is likely only going to bet the flush.

    Lot of bad players check/call when they should be bet/folding. Bet/folding isn't really an option here with the stack size/pot ratio so it's shove or check/fold to a shove or yeah check/call if he bets small.

    If the river was a lower spade it would be a much easier shove for value, but the Q makes it harder for him to call with TT or AJ/KJ and of course it's unlikely anyway he has the case jack.

    Shove.
     1
  17. mdschluter mdschluter is offline

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    Mar 27th, 2011 (3/27/2011 5:51pm) in reply to Puggy82

    check the turn first off.

    ur not really worried about any draws and that will make him think you are bluffing. then you can act accordingly if/when he bets turn and/ or river.

    the way you played it, it looks like he has a mid pair like 99. so bet just over half pot to make it look like value bet/ bluff.

    my bad- didnt see flush draw on flop actually. so u played it well.


    but ya i would still bet river as it looks like has 88 or 99 most times here
  18. CookieStache CookieStache is offline

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    Mar 27th, 2011 (3/27/2011 6:21pm) in reply to mdschluter

    can't check fold that would be way to weak
    cant bet fold.. thats even weaker
    bet calling is an option, but i think if you bet it's going to look stronger than if you shove, which is not a good thing considering we want weaker hands to call us..
    so shove
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