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How to play pps in EP with short-med stack.

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  1. Annette_15 Annette_15 is offline

    Norway

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    Aug 17th, 2007 (8/17/2007 11:11pm)

    Ok, so there has been a lot of posts about this lately, and i made a reply to one of em that i think lotta ppl missed, so ill copy it here again. Its a big leak in ppl's game to over value pp's when they have a short stack, and i often see terrible overshoves because ppl just dunno what to with them. Here's a chart for what I do in these spots.... now, im not saying this is the correct way to play em, but at least it will keep u out of trouble most of the time and the mistakes wont be too big.

    Assuming utg at 9 handed table: (Very small or no ante)

    Edit- This of course depends on the table and their callingranges as mentioned in the thread, but this is just some pointers if ur at a random table with no reads on the players

    50x+
    limp or raise

    25x+:
    raise all pps

    20x-25x:
    22-55 fold
    66+ raise

    15x-20x:
    22-66 fold
    77+ raise

    12x-14x:
    22-88 fold
    88+ raise and call shove

    10x-11x:
    22-77 fold
    88+ shove

    9x:
    22-44 fold
    55+ shove

    8x or less:
    shove any pp

    With antes later in tourneys:

    14x-15x:
    22-55 fold
    66-88 raise and fold to shove
    99+ raise and call shove

    13x:
    22-77 fold
    88+ raise and call shove

    11x-12x:
    22-77 fold
    88+ shove

    10x:
    22-33 (cant decide what to do with 44 lol) fold
    55+ shove

    9x or less:
    shove any pp

    Just felt like taking some responsibility and get some poker back up on the board after all this drama :)

    Annette
     121
  2. agriffrod agriffrod is offline 2010 WSOP #3 FT

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    Aug 17th, 2007 (8/17/2007 11:13pm) in reply to Annette_15

    9x:
    22-44 fold
    55+ shove

    IMO 22 and 55 have the same value. How often are you getting called by 22-44 that it makes such a difference? Especially on an EP shove
     
  3. New Shawboy New Shawboy is offline

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    Aug 17th, 2007 (8/17/2007 11:15pm) in reply to Annette_15

    Thanks for the tip.

    ^^^plugs leak.
     
  4. sputnikjohnson sputnikjohnson is offline

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    Aug 17th, 2007 (8/17/2007 11:16pm) in reply to agriffrod

    ^^good question
  5. ihaterats ihaterats is offline

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    Aug 17th, 2007 (8/17/2007 11:17pm) in reply to New Shawboy

    I have been knocked out of more tourneys holding 44 than any other hand.
  6. sputnikjohnson sputnikjohnson is offline

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    Aug 17th, 2007 (8/17/2007 11:20pm) in reply to ihaterats

    I hear you ess... low PP are murder
  7. ibrokeu ibrokeu is offline

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    Aug 17th, 2007 (8/17/2007 11:24pm) in reply to agriffrod

    at the lower levels i see calls with any ace, any pair and occasionally i see guys calling with any king so 55 goes up in value.
  8. sandler1860 sandler1860 is offline

    Dayton, OH
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    Aug 17th, 2007 (8/17/2007 11:26pm) in reply to Annette_15

    thx Annette
     
  9. agriffrod agriffrod is offline 2010 WSOP #3 FT

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    Aug 17th, 2007 (8/17/2007 11:27pm) in reply to ibrokeu

    Well this is just a basic guideline she made up. The shove really depends on calling ranges obviously. Usually 22-44, A3/A4 isn't calling your ep shove, which makes 55 have the same value as 22.
     
  10. iLLNuGWichee iLLNuGWichee is offline

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    Aug 17th, 2007 (8/17/2007 11:34pm) in reply to sputnikjohnson

    ess will arrest you for less sput, watch what you say
     
  11. agriffrod agriffrod is offline 2010 WSOP #3 FT

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    Aug 17th, 2007 (8/17/2007 11:36pm) in reply to ihaterats

    Favorite hold'em pocket 4 4
     
  12. ibrokeu ibrokeu is offline

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    Aug 17th, 2007 (8/17/2007 11:38pm) in reply to agriffrod

    if you dont think you can get a call from a5 or worse or 44 or worse then 55 is almost worthless.

    but you have to draw the line somewhere.
  13. wmariner wmariner is offline

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    Aug 17th, 2007 (8/17/2007 11:39pm) in reply to Annette_15

    thanks alot help to have some sort of guideline...
  14. agriffrod agriffrod is offline 2010 WSOP #3 FT

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    Aug 17th, 2007 (8/17/2007 11:41pm) in reply to ibrokeu

    That's not even close to true. You add 1 M to your stack if they fold, which they do some % of the time. Also, you're ahead, albeit slightly, vs overs. You're in the same shape with 55 v AK as you are with QQ.
     
  15. ginwilly ginwilly is offline

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    Aug 17th, 2007 (8/17/2007 11:52pm) in reply to wmariner

    pure gold, thanks

    and just a guess about 22 and 55 holding same value, 22, 33 are more likely to get counterfitted than 55 and up, it's just an odds thing
  16. ibrokeu ibrokeu is offline

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    Aug 17th, 2007 (8/17/2007 11:59pm) in reply to agriffrod

    my problem with it is if you cant get calls from hands you are a decent favorite over is you are racing at best.
  17. agriffrod agriffrod is offline 2010 WSOP #3 FT

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 12:07am) in reply to ibrokeu

    Yes but racing in a tourney when you have 9x and its very early in a tourney is just fine IMO. I dunno why people are so against racing
     
  18. phatstak23 phatstak23 is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 12:07am) in reply to ginwilly

    wow we are actually discussing poker here? Thanks for the post Annette PP's shortstacked absolutely kill me.
  19. agriffrod agriffrod is offline 2010 WSOP #3 FT

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 12:09am) in reply to ginwilly

    Not more likely enough to make it a fold.

    EDIT: it's about 1.2% difference in win% and equity vs a range of pairs of 77+
     
  20. CalBandGreat CalBandGreat is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 12:19am) in reply to Annette_15

    Yeah, I was hoping that more people would respond to the last post where you posted this. This is great information and anyone having trouble playing pocket pairs with a short-medium stack should print this out and post it somewhere by their computer. Where I was having the most difficulty was playing middle pairs with a stack of like 12-15 Big Blinds, this helped a lot, thanks.
     
  21. jesterwords jesterwords is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 1:30am) in reply to Annette_15

    how does this almost page 2???

    THANK YOU ANNETTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 much appreciated.
  22. darkcheck_ darkcheck_ is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 1:51am) in reply to ginwilly

    .
     
  23. ibrokeu ibrokeu is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 1:53am) in reply to agriffrod

    obviously at that point a race would be great im saying its a race at best.

    if you are never going to be more than a small favorite and sometimes a big dog then i think you are running into trouble.

    obviously you are short and have to do something but id rather shove loose in late pos than low pairs in ep.
  24. apestyles apestyles is offline Moderator

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 1:55am) in reply to Annette_15

    I like the idea of this post but I have slightly difference ranges. The only thing I really really disagree with is...

    14x-15x:
    22-55 fold
    66-88 raise and fold to shove
    99+ raise and call shove

    Raising and folding to a shove < folding < raise and call shove. That has to be a giant leak based on the odds you are getting and strategically I almost never raise/fold with a 15 Bb or less stack. Generally if youre playing the hand you're playing it all in preflop, not many people are going to flat call. There are some instances where I might raise fold with these hands 1.) I raise and the nittiest of nits goes all in or minraises or whatever 2.) If there is a 3 bet and 4 bet in front of me.

    I'm gonna have to think about my general rules (alot depends on position). Overall I think its a pretty good list and very helpful.

    I like to overshove pairs slightly more than unpaired cards since you are generally not trapping worse hands but racing as you might be with a big ace.

    Edit: also on one of em u say 22-88 fold 88+ raise call.. thats impossible obviously but just a mistype im sure.
     282 12 

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  25. agriffrod agriffrod is offline 2010 WSOP #3 FT

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 2:07am) in reply to ibrokeu

    For what it's worth

    With a calling range of 77+,ATs+,KQs,ATo+,KQo. Which is kind of tight but not really when its an ep shove. It's obv not a read based range and solely for the purpose of this thread.

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 61.129% 60.78% 00.35% 799285968 4589586.00 { 77+, ATs+, KQs, ATo+, KQo }
    Hand 1: 38.871% 38.52% 00.35% 506584332 4589586.00 { 22 }

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 59.545% 59.28% 00.27% 779503716 3545934.00 { 77+, ATs+, KQs, ATo+, KQo }
    Hand 1: 40.455% 40.19% 00.27% 528453888 3545934.00 { 55 }

    that's like a 1.5% difference, so this is why I say shove 22 if you shove 55.

    Also, just for the sake of the thread, this calling range is way too loose IMO for any table but some of you lower stakes guys claim they call very loose on an ep shove so whatever.

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 42.881% 42.59% 00.29% 1032757440 6945120.00 { A2s+, KTs+, QJs, A2o+, KTo+ }
    Hand 1: 57.119% 56.83% 00.29% 1377974784 6945120.00 { 55 }

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 48.090% 47.73% 00.36% 1157290140 8699250.00 { A2s+, KTs+, QJs, A2o+, KTo+ }
    Hand 1: 51.910% 51.55% 00.36% 1249933824 8699250.00 { 22 }

    The difference is about 5% but really they need to be calling really damn loose for 22 to not be really damn close to 55.
     
  26. agriffrod agriffrod is offline 2010 WSOP #3 FT

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 2:18am) in reply to apestyles

    Yeah I missed that too.

    If you're raising and folding you practically have 27o on a lot of flops. I mean you aren't flat called that much and seeing that many good boards oop with 66. Granted you have way more showdown value but if you're raising for the sole purpose of taking down blinds I just don't get it. I think raise folding 14x or 15x is a leak, unless in situations like ape pointed out. Open folding or raise calling is a better option imo. Although I guess being able to fold and still play a comfortable short stack is a way to back ur argument. I still like raise calling though, prolly just cause ape taught me to lol.
     
  27. Pupkin Pupkin is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 3:10am) in reply to Annette_15

    Good post, Annette, thanks.
  28. yellowsub yellowsub is offline dive dive dive

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 4:17am) in reply to Pupkin

    dont ever fold 77 pre, cmon
     
  29. trajan30 trajan30 is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 4:32am) in reply to agriffrod

    racing pwns ^^^^^^ :)

    skeeting is my favorite thing to do, well, besides skeeting of course.
     
  30. porter porter is offline

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    Aug 18th, 2007 (8/18/2007 4:56am) in reply to Annette_15

    Thats fanstastic thanks annette
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