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I know this one pro who plays everyday at one of the biggest stud games at the Bellagio and he barely makes 6 figures a year. Some months he makes 30k but other months he has a downswing and loses 15k, other months he might barely show a profit.
If a longtime pro playing a very high limit game has a tough time making 6 figures, I was curious how many online pros do it, whether tournaments, cash games, sit and goes whatever. I'm not talking about guys with one big tournament score, or someone who is on huge hot streak the last month playing 10/20 NL. How many people online are consistently capable of earning $100,000 plus per year?
I say this figure because that is the goal of a lot of people who want to be poker professionals, yet there are probably only a small amount, maybe 1,000 or so that are doing it. Most of us want to emulate guys like Prahlad Friedman or Action Jeff that are crushing the game and earning close to seven figures, but these guys are the elite of the elite. Just becoming part of the elite, where you can earn a large salary while not burning out on the game is a huge accomplishment in itself. -
Posts: 514
Joined: May 06Jul 26th, 2006 (7/26/2006 4:59am) in reply to Qcity
playing live you can only play one table during your session. Online, you can sit at as many tables as you can manage, increasing your winnings/hour
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Posts: 551
Joined: Apr 06Jul 26th, 2006 (7/26/2006 5:05am) in reply to icount52
yes the beauty of online poker is playing in volume. that is, multi-tabling 6 or 10 or 12 tables or however many you want. You're also seeing about 3 times as many hands in an online table vs live (am i close?)
Plus the bigger tournaments that some pros win consistently most likely get waaaay more ppl than regular tournaments at casinos because people aren't limited to where they live anymore. Play online against ppl around the world!
That and most tournaments online last a few hours where live tournaments can last days. -
Posts: 2,262
Joined: Jan 06Jul 26th, 2006 (7/26/2006 5:06am) in reply to icount52
my *guess* would be that most of the ranked players have been making 100k+ per year (for many of them they make a heck of a lot more than that).
I would further hazzard a guess that there is say 10 times more players than these MTT specialists that make this kind of money playing poker online (either playing v high stakes nl cash games or the biggest fixed limits.)
so... my guess is say 500-600 players make this kind of money, and probably will / could continue to do so.
does this sound like a good guess?
also: how many internet poker players are there in the world? (lets arbitarily decide that an "internet poker play" = someone who plays poker on line for cash @ an average of 5+ hrs per week for most of the year....)
is there 2 mil such players?
--tc -
Posts: 4,351
Joined: Jan 06Jul 26th, 2006 (7/26/2006 5:10am) in reply to timzc1
I would guess there are quite a few players making $100k+ playin 2/4 3/6
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This is true but live your BB/100 should be quite a bit higher due to more focus and reads and in the above example he plays a very high limit 75/150 stud game.
Just take tournament players, if you exclude big 75K+ scores in tournaments, there are probably only 50 tournament players who play tournaments as their main source of income and make 6 figures+ (just look at databases like thepokerdb where only top players, mostly people already ranked, are logging in long term profit). And cash games from my own experience (and I've dabbled at the higher limits), tends to be full of rocks, short time donators and an occasional lockbox on a hot streak (equivalent to the amateur making a big cash in a Sunday tourney, not a real professional). The rocks, the pros that I see day after day, rarely ever have a big stack or scoop a big pot. Maybe they are still doing well with their style, but they aren't killing the game or making a huge income. I just don't think there are a lot of poker pros making that kind of money. -
Yes that was my guess that there are about 500-1,000 players making this sort of money.
There are millions internet players but 90% of these play very occasionally as a rare diversion. They may play two or three tournaments a month or a handful of sit and goes or a cash games once in awhile at work. Then there are the people who play a lot but are conistent losers (usually small time losers) or break even players.
Of the consistent winning players, i.e., professionals, whether part time or full time, most are lower limit players grinding out 10k-50k a year (in our warped money world its easy to forget that 10k a year additional income is a large amount of money to many people like retired people, disabled people that can't work, strapped students, whatever) -
Posts: 1,471
Joined: Jan 06Jul 26th, 2006 (7/26/2006 5:21am) in reply to Qcity
Well ive seen Mahatma be up close to 100K in just one HOUR in PL omaha, so making that much in a year seems doable if you play high limits, and you are very good. Plus no one said your friend the stud player is as good as half the players online. Plus the guys at his table are quite good too im sure.
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I'm not a ranked player and my poker winnings were a good bit over 100k last year, and as I've been trying to play a lot more live last few months I realize how much I'm losing out on it compared to multitabling online. Playing live 10/20 nl or even 5/10 nl at the Bellagio I have bigger swings for some reason and I also manage to make a lot less than multitabling 8 tables of 2/4 nl shorthanded online. I'm by no means saying I'm the top player at the 10/20 or 5/10 nl live game but I find online cashgames so much more profitable.
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<SPAN>Live play and online play are vastly different they do share one thing in common “less than 1% are actually winners” every player will go through their winning/losing streaks or have what they consider a bad beat “this occurs daily”. Each person needs to have a daily goal when it’s reached get up and leave for the day or you end up giving it all your chips to another player this cycle it can not be avoided; Learning to understand when your cycle has changed is the most important part of being successful, for some people it’s a feeling, mood swings, others astrology and then there are the ones who have sold their soul. Talking daily with an Atlantic City pro he told me “it’s not fun to watch the money just move around the table”. </SPAN>
<SPAN> </SPAN>
<SPAN>There are three types of people in the entire world of online gambling;</SPAN>
<SPAN> </SPAN>- <LI class=MsoNormal><SPAN>1% of all the people in the world who are just lucky at everything they do</SPAN></LI> <LI class=MsoNormal><SPAN>The losers</SPAN></LI> <LI class=MsoNormal><SPAN>The people that are on the inside</SPAN></LI>
<SPAN>What I thought was funny recently was the thread asking if you’re a winner or a loser, everyone was a winner, each time I read more responses it became apparent most people just were not honest with themselves. Personally I’m down as of today $330, live I’m up fair amount.</SPAN>
<SPAN> </SPAN>
<SPAN> </SPAN>
<SPAN> </SPAN>
<SPAN>Because online play is not regulated in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">USA</st1:country-region> this gives gambling sites a tremendous advantage over the casual <st1:country-region w:st="on">USA</st1:country-region> player (what 99% of us are). </SPAN>
<SPAN> </SPAN>
<SPAN>The question I pose to all; </SPAN>
<SPAN> </SPAN>
<SPAN>Why are you not pushing the <st1:country-region w:st="on">USA</st1:country-region> government regulate online gambling? </SPAN>
<SPAN>Is online poker/gambling fun? Yes </SPAN>
<SPAN>Should it be out against law? NO </SPAN>
<SPAN>Should players have the opportunity to register a complaint with an impartial agency that will investigate? YES</SPAN>
<SPAN> </SPAN>
<SPAN>Why do all the same players consistently win in online poker?</SPAN>
<SPAN>Why are not they same players constantly winning in live poker?</SPAN>
<SPAN>The number of players entering the tournaments are the same! </SPAN>
<SPAN>When we enter an online poker tournament are we all playing against that 1% who are just lucky?</SPAN>
<SPAN> </SPAN>
<SPAN>A good laugh for the month is when someone will post “it is impossible for a poker site to be hacked”… well… may be it is impossible. I guess I may be naive when it comes to understanding programming I just do not understand how my operating system has flaws exposed each day or how sensitive Military, Financial and Medical systems are compromised each day? Is the “gambling software I downloaded that much more secure? Holly poker software Batman can we convert the poker software into operating system. <SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN>
<SPAN> </SPAN>
<SPAN>Beanie has said to me in private he feels I am too hard on “online poker” its not that I am trying to be hard on online gambling I want legitimacy in online gambling. When someone has a complaint I want a legitimate USA Federal/Local agency that I recognize to investigate that complaint. </SPAN>
<SPAN> </SPAN>
<SPAN>Should the <st1:country-region w:st="on">USA</st1:country-region> one day regulate online gambling it would be my guess once the DOJ reviews each site’s records or lack of records there will be many arrest warrants issued… just a guess.</SPAN>
<SPAN> </SPAN>
<SPAN>FYI: gambling sites share your information with the other sites I’m okay with this AC & LV do it.
PS: If you feel I am just ranting please accept my apology that is not what I intended.
Regards,
</SPAN> -
Posts: 3,722
Joined: Nov 05Jul 26th, 2006 (7/26/2006 1:43pm) in reply to WowThats
ok I will give an example of what I know, 5/10 NL.
You have a win rate of 3 bb/hr(not RLY that good, but still a consitent winning player). that's $60/hr over 4 tables= $240/hr.
With a win rate like that Its EASY to make over 100k. -
Posts: 1,627
Joined: Apr 05Jul 26th, 2006 (7/26/2006 1:57pm) in reply to WowThats
This is really, really silly. First of all the number of winning players is probably closer to 10% not 1%. I certainly agree with you that lots of losing players claim to be winning players. This "luck or corruption" factor you are talking about makes no sense at all.
<span>Why do all the same players consistently win in online poker? Apparently you think this is a sure sign of corruption, but I would say its because those players use their skills to have an edge on other players. It also isn't true that these guys "always win." They go through their bad and unlucky streaks just like everyone else. Don't you see that this is like saying, "I find it very suspicous that Ichiro Suzuki keeps winning batting titles. Why does he consistently get more hits than anyone else?" </span>
<span>Why are not they same players constantly winning in live poker? Silly question, mostly because these people don't consistently play live poker and certainly don't play as many tournaments. A tournament pro may play 20 tournaments a day online so its not exactly shocking that you hear about them winning more online. But its not like good online players don't do well in live tournaments. Take a look at the money list for the world series. Actually in the last year a bunch of online players have had some great results live. </span>
<span>The number of players entering the tournaments are the same! </span>
<span>When we enter an online poker tournament are we all playing against that 1% who are just lucky?
Now I've just entirely lost you. Here's an experiement for you. Open up a stars tournament, lets say one of 150s. Now DB all of the people who made the final table. I'll bet you will find maybe 2 players with some pretty good long term winning numbers, maybe another 3 or so who are small time, but not consistent winners, and 4 guys who are either small or big time losers.
</span> -
Posts: 822
Joined: Jan 06Jul 26th, 2006 (7/26/2006 2:04pm) in reply to Qcity
I know that you can make that kinda money at fairly low stakes online and it was because as mentioned you can play multiple tables...I hazard to say that if poker was my job I could crack the $100K mark for a year at the very low limits, it would be an effing grind, but I think I could do it...I only have a crappy 17" monitor and I play about 6 tables of PLO8 at one time at the $100 level and sometimes mix in a few $200 tables as well...
In almost 30,000 hands at the $100 level I'm averaging 18.5BB per 100 hands so if this was my job I think I could easily play 2000-2500 hands per day or more (there are days when I come home from work and am able to do that), which on average would net me in the neighborhood of $400/day...Depending on how much you wanted to work 250-300 days? That gives you your $100-120K...
Not saying that it would be easy or fun, would be an effing grind, but I think it can be done...I had a stretch where I was getting in about 2000 hands per day for about a week-week and a half straight...Can't believe that some of you guys could actually grind it out and do this stuff...I was effing numb after it... -
i played 2/4 NL cash games at Bodog last year and cracked the 100K mark in profits a couple of months in. I believe the competition has gotten better since, but I definately think winning full time players at that level and up are easily clearing 6 figures.
edit: I know the # seems high, and I was really shocked when I got into poker that so much could be made @ such a "low stake". Also, full time to me is 12+ hours a day- I was probably playing closer to 18 a day at that stage, and no I wasn't taken any adderall. -
Posts: 400
Joined: Mar 06Jul 26th, 2006 (7/26/2006 2:22pm) in reply to WowThats
I'm still trying to come up with one example where US govt. regulation brought legitimacy to anything (with the exception of abortion - wow, when legitimizing abortion is the high point in our nation's regulatory history......)
All I see from US govt regulation is increased taxes, higher costs to businesses which are then passed on to the consumer and miles of red tape. You want this? -
Posts: 4,351
Joined: Jan 06Jul 26th, 2006 (7/26/2006 2:23pm) in reply to Ari
Speaking of Rizen he was on another $100+9 final table last night at party. Same time as ape was chopping. This guy is goooot.
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Joined: Jan 05Jul 26th, 2006 (7/26/2006 2:28pm) in reply to acecatcher26
$2-$4 No Limit = 100K+? Come on... thats like the local low limit buy in No Limit at all the casinos around the country. Just a bunch of guys playing to win a few hundred here and there, sometimes cracking the thousand dollar mark in profits. I dunno... seems to small for 100K.
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clizzark
has cockbreath
Posts: 6,299
Joined: Apr 05Jul 26th, 2006 (7/26/2006 2:31pm) in reply to Dumb Walrus
How many tables are the guys at the local casino playing at once?
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Gabovitch: I feel you attempting to make a some good points in certain aspects of your response I also feel you are attempting to delude the entire topic. The example of Ichiro Suzuki is very poor at best this is why Ichiro plays in front of thousands of people each day his accomplishments and stats are visible daily to the entire world to scrutinize. Online players stats/accomplishments are not visible they are hidden inside of software that we do not have the ability to review or have someone that is trusted state the programing is sound "every wonder why no gambling sites even the publicly traded do not state their software has been analyzed and is certified by any regulatory agency"? My statements are not meant as sign of corruption this is simple fact.
Online players results at the WSOP are impressive...
Now I've just entirely lost you. Here's an experiment for you. Open up a stars tournament, lets say one of 150s. Now DB all of the people who made the final table. I'll bet you will find maybe 2 players with some pretty good long term winning numbers, maybe another 3 or so who are small time, but not consistent winners, and 4 guys who are either small or big time losers.
I would call BS on this statement I do understand what you are attempting to convey.
Ari: isn't your name on bodog "bodogari" the two out wonder? -
Posts: 3,722
Joined: Nov 05Jul 26th, 2006 (7/26/2006 3:00pm) in reply to clizzark
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</TD><TD>Re(1): How pros make 6 figures online?
by Ari on 7/26/2006 13:12 </TD><TD><NOBR>
</NOBR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD bgColor=#ffffff></TD><TD colSpan=2><TABLE cellPadding=2 border=0 celspacing="0"><TBODY><TR><TD>i played 2/4 NL cash games at Bodog last year and cracked the 100K mark in profits a couple of months in. I believe the competition has gotten better since, but I definately think winning full time players at that level and up are easily clearing 6 figures.
edit: I know the # seems high, and I was really shocked when I got into poker that so much could be made @ such a "low stake". Also, full time to me is 12+ hours a day- I was probably playing closer to 18 a day at that stage, and no I wasn't taken any adderall.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Ok time to do some math before calling BS.
I don't want to know what Ari's bb/hr rate was, but lets say he was 4 tabling at 4 bb/hr(he probably was higher, but lets use this number). 4bb at 2/4 = $32 an hour PER TABLE. times 4 tables = $128/hr
Now he said during that point he was playing 12 hrs/day, well say 5 days a week. Thats 60 hrs a week times $128/ hr. Thats $7680 PER WEEK.
The numbers I used were probably on the low side(bb/hr for sure) but they show how it doesn't take an amazing win rate or a huge BR to make good $$ online. -
Posts: 1,627
Joined: Apr 05Jul 26th, 2006 (7/26/2006 3:39pm) in reply to WowThats
Look, here's the thing Wowthats. Its not that I think that it would be "impossible" to rig a site. Obviously it could be done. The point is that I don't understand why it would be done. If you have a theory you have to have a good argument for motive for it to be even plausible and I have yet to hear an argument that explains to me why it would be smart for any site to rig their software. The risks would quite clearly outweigh the rewards. It would make even less sense to somehow rig the software to benefit some select group of players. It would make make more sense to rig things the other way. Whenever a player goes bust, there is a chance that the player is just going to quit rather than reload. At the same time when some players do very well over a long period of time more of their money leaves the site. This means to keep the rake coming in, you have to keep finding new players to take the place of those who lose their money and stop playing. So, it really isn't in a sites interest to see a small percentage of people win the most money. The more evenly distributed winnings were the better things would be in theory.
If your argument is that the players who win a lot of money are the ones who have figured out a way to hack the system somehow...well thats an odd argument. I know several players who fit in the category of six figure winners, none of them are hacking the system...or capable of hacking into much of anything. -
Posts: 822
Joined: Jan 06Jul 26th, 2006 (7/26/2006 3:51pm) in reply to Dumb Walrus
Instead of doing the hourly rate thing you can do the $$/100 hands thing...I'm sure if you did this for a living you would have a set-up that you could at least 8-10 table on...
(9 tables) * (55 hands/hour/table) * (14 hours/day) = 6930 hands/day
And I'll pull the number 3 outta my butt for BB won/100 hands...This could be low, could be a little high, but I'm sure it's probably on the lowish side...
(3BB) * ($4) * (69.3) = $831.6/day
As you can see it's trivally easy for a GOOD player to make $100K playing 2/4 NL online...It would take him busting his ass for 120 days to hit the $100K mark...Obviously NOT everybody can do this, we're talking here about a talented poker player, but still it's not even close to being tough (just based on the pure mathematically calculation. NOT talking about mental toll, which is a huge part of playing this much)... -
That of course if your operating under the assumption s/he is telling the truth.
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Posts: 400
Joined: Mar 06Jul 26th, 2006 (7/26/2006 5:30pm) in reply to WowThats
Are you talking about Ari? I think it's a given Ari is telling the truth.
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1. Online gambling is a $12 Billion year industry.
2. When most players go bust they "redeposit", people quit playing when they feel they have been cheated.
My argument is NOT that players who win a lot of money are the ones who have figured out to hack the system you have missed the entire point. -
Here are my numbers playing 2/4 NL on party :
I usually play 10 tables which = ~ 600 hands an hour.
My PTBB/100 is ~5. I'm sure many others have higher, though it's hard playing 10 tables.
5 PTBB/100 = 40 dollars profit every 100 hands. 40 * 600 = 240 dollars an hour.
Only playing 20 hours a week = ~250k a year. -
Regarding Bodog, when it 1st came out and 2/4 nl was their highest game I made at least 5k a week every week for the 1st 10 weeks. That's how redonkulous the tables were.
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Posts: 1,627
Joined: Apr 05Jul 26th, 2006 (7/26/2006 6:17pm) in reply to WowThats
1. Okay, so...
2. To a point yes, but for all but the most compulsive gamblers, there is a limit to how much they are willing to lose. I redoposited once. If I'd gone bust again in a month or two I would have stopped because I didn't have enough money to be able to afford poker as a losing hobby. I'm sure that people would quit playing if they thought they were being cheated (although I'm always amazed by the number of people who are completley convinced that online poker is rigged yet keep playing. Do they enjoy being cheated? Do you?) but that is actually why I have a fair amount of confidence in the indsustry as a whole. Any site that was shown to be ripping players off, or was hackable would go down the tubes pretty quickly.
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89458 | 123 | 4th | |
| 4 |  Australia |
88336 | 994 | 3rd | |
| 5 |  Mexico |
87509 | 184 | 5th |
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